Should maternity units provide formula?

[hunkermunker]

Or should you have to take it in with you if you're planning to ff?

I can see both sides of this - but what's your experience and how did you feel about it?

I meant to say the issue of formula on wards is not really very important!

Maternity units normally have three or four brands of formula milk available. It became illegal (about 20 years ago, I think) for units to set up a contract with one manufacturer only as this was seen to be commercially disadvantageous to other manufacturers (nothing to do with health reasons) who would then, of course, be at an advantage as women tended (and still do tend) to stick with the brand they start on, at least for a few weeks.

Babies often throw up, especially at first, whatever brand of formula is chosen, and breastfed babies do this, too. So it might not have been the milk, mamadiva, you will never know!

maria, you say "Whatever breastfeeding militants say, I will simply never ever agree that breastfeeding is such a central, life-or-death issue to the whole relationship with a child as they present it to be. Formula milk is NOT poison...."

You think this is a common view, expressed frequently? And that somehow you and others are under pressure to agree to it?

Your position that a lifetime's diet of big macs etc etc is more unhealthy than a few months of formula feeding is not in the least uncontroversial, but that's not what we are comparing here - the research compares breastfeeding and formula feeding, and finds, totally uncontroversially, that babies have worse health outcomes on formula. This includes obesity, as well as a range of other conditions.

To others: you do not need to follow thousands of people day by day for their entire lives to discover the effects of diet on health.

There is a poor knowledge of how science and research works on this board - I recommend the book Bad Science by Ben Goldacre which shows how poor knowledge allows people to be duped by commercial interests.

Tiktok: agreed about comparing ff & bf & finding bf leading to better health outcomes (in general). I'm especially convinced about immunity & antibodies etc. I do have some problems though with other types of research, e.g. about obesity or IQ linked to bf or not bf. This is a big discussion (I wrote about this on the other thread about women admitting to ff just because they don't want to bf). Perhaps this forum is not the place to discuss what science is, how ideology influences science, how 'research' is never completely bias-free etc. But all these are real issues, and the research on bf versus ff should be critiqued & updated, like all other kind of research.

As for what I called 'militant breastfeeders' talking about bf being a life or death issues, yes, I think this is a view expressed much more often than I would be comfortable with. Not just here on MN (see this thread, there are people writing here showing no tolerance whatsoever to those who ff). But also in real life. Here's an example. My boy had a nursing strike for a couple of weeks when he was 4 months old. I expressed milk & gave it in a bottle & put him on the breast as much as I could... he finally returned to the breast & was fine. During this crisis I called a bf helpline, & was crying while talking to them, fearing that my bf days were over. Instead of looking at the emotional side of things, and my need to not let my boy go hungry (thus giving him bottles), the counsellor went on & on about my latch (which to be honest was completely fine, & had been checked in person by numerous people). Whenever I tried to steer the discussion to other sides of the problem, she would just continue talking about the latch, & about how I shouldn't give formula ever because 'it would introduce serious health risks' (that is exactly what she said, it's a direct quote). She also warned me against giving my boy bottles, even though he was completely fine using bottles once in a while since he was 8 weeks, & even though I had said I didn't want to starve him, nor to cup-feed him which hadn't worked when I tried it. Anyway, this is turning into an essay, but this was just one of many examples of attitudes which in my opinion actually DISCOURAGE women from bf-ing. Saying to someone formula would introduce 'serious health risks' (when in fact I wasn't even contemplating formula-feeding) is scaremongering in my opinion, and a complete exaggeration.

Maria - you were let down by the breastfeeding counsellor. Which organisation was she from? You could complain about this...I am a breastfeeding counsellor with NCT and neither I nor my colleagues (I hope) would deal with you in the way you report.

I do occasionally come across pro-breastfeeding campaigners whose approach is off-putting, but very few, to be honest. There are always people everywhere who will be tactless and ill-informed, and you'll occasionally hear the same thing from people who think breastfeeding is disgusting or obscene or some other stupid notion.

The research on infant feeding and obesity, and the stuff on IQ, is newer than the other stuff about infection. But it's still pretty robust. It's also biologically plausible: the physiogically normal way to be nourished and grow in the early months has , as we know, important ways of nurturing neurological and cerebral development that formula milk cannot begin to copy, and we'd also expect things like appetite setting to be better developed in a breastfed baby. How far these biological mechanisms can be overridden by (for example) future diet, or environment, is not yet known. But it's certainly to be expected that the best foundations for cognitive development, and a healthy weight, would be set in the early months by the species-appropriate diet.

This may open a huge can of worms but in relation to the comments about 'something' needing to be available for a baby whose mother is struggling to establish bf - how would you feel about donated milk? I personally, would much prefer to offer my baby donated breast milk if I couldn't feed or express myself rather than formula. I wonder would it be seen as a more temporary solution than ff that would encourage more mothers to keep trying - obviously this would need to be backed up with proper bf support...

Hi Tiktok again (we keep bumping into each other in all three threads on bf going on at the moment! )

I agree with all that you say. I know that I shouldn't judge breastfeeding counsellors in general just because I had a couple of bad experiences. At the same time, I was very lucky indeed to have a wonderful experience with a doula/bf counsellor in the first weeks of my baby's life. I'm sure that was the reason I continued bf-ing. And by the way, for those who don't like the word 'bf militants', well, that particular bf-ing counsellor who helped me used that word herself . So I agree Tiktok, it's perfectly possible to have people with offputting behaviours on both sides (pro-bf or anti-bf).

However- and going back to the discussion this thread is about- I've heard one too many stories about really bossy (and often inadequate in other ways) bf-ing support in postnatal wards. My experience was not that bad in the postnatal ward, although I found the advice to express colostrum with a syringe (!!), when my baby was screaming with hunger, really mad. It made me very depressed- in the middle of all that tiredness- and what finally helped was a kind nurse who fed our baby some formula from a cup, & then he was able to get some strength & try to latch on again.

Bubbleymummy: donated breast milk would be fine, in the circumstances I was in (which I just wrote about in the above post) I would be happy with 'something' to be honest, be it EBM or formula, just because I was feeling so tired & desperate.

Tiktok, as to the research you mention, I would be interested in reading it. TBH, I haven't read that much actual research on bf-ing. I've read books about the ideologies of bf-ing, the experiences of women bf-ing etc. However, I have general problems with the notion of IQ itself, & all research related to it (and there is much in psychology to support this view, that IQ in itself is a problematic concept). Because you asked in the other thread too about research, I respect research, but not ALL research. I think research cannot avoid being biased, & there is much in psychology critiquing large 'quantitative' studies, & trying for more qualitative methodologies of research which take context, class, circumstances & all sorts of other things into account. Anyway, this is a huge discussion & obviously not meant for this thread. But would be glad to chat more about it all.

(hijacking the thread again!) BTW, I don't mean by that that all quantitive research is problematic, just that some may be, and often is shown to be.

Maria - I'll come back later about the research bit, but please complain about that breastfeeding counsellor and let us know which organisation she was from. I am shocked she would use the word 'militant' about herself

Tiktok: no no, the 'good' bf counsellor who worked with us after birth once said, in a jokey manner, that some breastfeeding mothers and/or counsellors can be militant. She wasn't referring to herself, obviously .

As to the organization I had that advice from... perhaps I can tell you in a personal message, because I called them 3 times and in other phonecalls they were good, just that one time things went completely haywire with the latch-obsessed-woman.

Maria2007, I have just finished replying to you on the other thread

I just had a quick thought about what the BFC said to you and possibly why.

As you have previously posted that when your baby nurses too long it hurts your nipples, wouldn't it be natural for a BFC on hearing that to bring up your latch and ways it could be improved ?

Also as you were topping up with bottles of formula at the time of your nursing strike and you previously posted that you thought these formula bottles were partly the reason your baby was refusing the breast, do you think that may that be why the BFC wanted to discuss the health risks of formula and suggest alternative feeding methods like cup feeding ?

Just a thought, I might be totally way off the mark but sometimes it helps to get a total strangers take on things

Anyhow I am sure Tiktok will be able to help you forward

I have asked for my last post on here, to be deleted as an earlier post I wrote to this poster was misread and I don't want to cause any unintented upset.

hi again babieseverywhere,just saw this

It's ok, don't worry about upsetting me (we discussed this in the other thread). However, just a couple of clarifications. First, I never had pain in my breasts / nipples, not after the first days of bf-ing. So perhaps you have me mixed up with someone else on this?

Second, I never really topped up with formula during the nursing strike, but topped up a lot with EBM (well basically fed DS solely with EBM for a few days when he was refusing the breast). Sometimes- just a few- I filled bottles up with formula to make up the feeds.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread!