Friend is "topping up" her 6-week old bf baby - how can I help?

[HaventSleptForAYear]

Am really stuck about how to give advice to bf friends without interfering.

Saw a friend recently who has been following a famous "routine" involving a bottle at 10pm (formula) and bf the rest of the time.

She now seems to be losing confidence and takes formula out with her "in case he's hungry". BF is still sore for her.

I BF DS1 with difficulty to start off with and have told her about this, but am worried that within a few weeks she will have given up and will then will feel bad about it (she has hinted at this).

Am really wary about interfering but feel sad if I can't help her out a little.

Any advice on giving advice ? (at a distance, will be over the phone)

Bloody hell. No-one is saying not to share your experiences here. No-one is judging whether she should bf exclusively or otherwise.

I am HAPPY that some mums beat the odds and successfully bf DESPITE duff advice. I have no problem with them sharing their experiences. I don't care what someone else's feeding choices are and if the OP's friend was happy with losing her supply and ff instead then fine!

But if following someone else's recommendations is proven to be likely to end up with her feeling sad and bewildered as to why things went wrong - how is that a good thing?

If I gamble my life savings at Vegas and win - my experience may be valid and I might want to share it, but people copying me are still more likely to end up losers than winners.

I just think if you were in the lucky minority, acknowledge that fact before you encourage anyone else to follow suit. It's not fair to the poor women who think that it will work for them because it did for you.

The chances are they will end up miserable.

But Aitch my darling, what is correct for Peter may not necessarily be correct for Pan!
How long is a piece of string?

I think it is pretty impossible, as we all have such differing experiences.

I Really struggled with breastfeeding. It was possibly one of the hardest things I have ever done. Especially with number 2. I was stressed to the point of PND. I was stressed beyond what is humanly possible. I was stressed to the point of finding entertainment in my lampshade and trying to dechiper the gothic writing on it. It was my only entertainment for 3 whole weeks. I was stressed out of my mind. So maybe MY particular experience should be discounted totally. My HV was a witch. I mean it. Her name was Violet and her hair was black blue. She was skinny as minny and was replaced after two weeks. Whether she set me up for failure (as one poster insinuated) I dont know. But I stuck to the advice I was given, and continued working hard at expressing, feeding throughout the night, feeding at demand, but topping up too. It worked for us. It might not work for Peter, it might not work for Pan. But this isnt science class, this isnt a university exam, it is peoples experiences and advice being sought.

Amen to that!

absolutely, that's exactly what i'm saying too QS. what is right for one may not be right for the other, and vice versa. however, the stakes of offering formula are very high if you do want to bf but are already operating at the top range of your possible supply. clearly you weren't, but in advising you to top up your HV took a risk on your behalf.

with yourself, however, that was the best advice possible given your own stress levels (ones that i presume the HV was able to observe) so the 'happy mum happy baby' thing may have rung true for you. it may be that the HV calculated that you would be likely to give up bfing altogether without a break for top-ups, and that may have been a very good call on her part. (personally i find that side of things more compelling, better to mix feed than give up altogether at the end of your tether imo, even though it may only be a temporary delay to giving up for a lot of people). an educated decision to mix feed, great, one built on misinformation, not so good.

according to the people i spoke to about teh stress factor, it is a widely-held belief without much validity. and it did affect me badly, because i didn't come out of the other side with my bfing intact. had i been told that it's a bit of a myth, i wouldn't have wasted so much of my time trying without domperidone, extra pumping etc etc. so that's why i find it dangerous advice. obv for some people (with a good enough supply) it's not, but unless everyone can predict the future it's better to ca' canny imo.

(and remember, all that means is being prepared to robustly defend your position, ideally with scientific research but certainly without pouting about it. seemed to me you came back with something from a reputable source, something that tt rejoindered wasn't necessarily correct. fine and dandy. you didn't resort to insults and pissiness.)

If the odds were that everyone who was advised to top up could have the same positive outcome that QS had, that would be brlliant (provided they were happy to ff, of course). It's just such a pity that so many women hope for that outcome, and are told they can have it all (often by HVs, it seems) but are bitterly disappointed instead.

Truly glad things ended so well for you, QS. I'm sure it took incredible determination to do what you did.

QS - you asked people to google your HV's advice about stress. You claimed it was not 'misinformation'. You then quoted, when challenged, a Norwegian website. You even said 'the breastfeeding brigade' were conspiratorially silent on the issue.

You were talking about one experience - your own - and generalising out of it, claiming it had general validity.

You cannot complain, surely, that others, inc me, come back to the discussion and say 'the advice you got from your HV would be more likely to undermine breastfeeding in other mothers' and 'there is evidence what she told you was incorrect'.

No one attacked you, no one bullied you, no one said only scientifically valid stuff can be posted on a talkboard.

BTW, your further info about your experience explains (probably) why you were lucky enough for this HV's advice not to stop you breastfeeding - you expressed and you gave breastfeeds 'throughout the night'. This is, I would guess, what protected your milk supply. Happily. But you didn't say this at first - you may have forgotten, no problem with that...but it does show another limitation of generalising out of personal experience, when we only get part of the experience

Good night guys!

To OP - I think your friend is lucky that you care. However, at this sensitive time, someone's well-meant advice can very easily sound like critisism, so if you do decide to say something, pick your timing and wording well. Even though I knew it was well-meant, it annoyed me a little when older family members said that this worked and that worked etc etc etc until I just wanted to be left alone to make my own mistakes.
What I would add though - if she asks for help (if she wants to bf of course), there is a lot that you can do to help, so maybe if she knew you are available in case she needs help, she'd be more likely to ask / listen?
I mixed fed, all worked fine, then I used too many bottles when we had visitors, and my supply went down to next-to-nothing, ds refused to even try, screamed blue murder etc. Knowing someone on here was invaluable, I asked, she helped me through it step by step, still supporting me now. Still working at it, but almost back to normal now, so sometimes just knowing help is out there if you wanted it makes you more likely to use it. Sorry for long post btw.

TIKTOK - I appreciate what you are saying. You are the, cant remember the name for it, but practically a breastfeeding goddess on here, but I came across this, and I think you may be of use. Forgive me if I have overstepped the line.

thread here

QS, I have no interest at all in being a breastfeeding goddess - eek, no thanks

I don't want you to 'appreciate' what I'm saying. I want you to accept and acknowledge here that there is no conspiracy of silence, that your attempt to offer evidence for generalising out of your experience could be misleading, and your sense of persecution (you say that every time you say topping up may not be so bad you are, apparently, booed off) is misplaced.

Look - it's a talk board. People talk. People exchange experiences and offer support with them - fantastic. Personal experience is worthwhile and can be a morale booster for others going through similar situations. But you have to expect that others (like me - and several others, as it happens) will come back and say 'your experience may not work because...' and it's okay for them to back that up with an indication that research and in some instances,their own experience, has informed their post.

You've accused me of hushing things up, of being defensive, of trying to silence you, of belittling individual experience...none of which is true.

If you now think you were wrong to say all that about me (and others), then how about saying so?

Instead, and puzzlingly, you point me towards another thread (I have already posted in Benjy's threads on this topic, as it happens).

I now think your phrase 'forgive me if I have overstepped the line' is an apology - but it's a very odd one. It may have to do, I suppose

i think QS speaks english as a second language, tiktok. rather brilliantly, of course, but perhaps that's why it might have sounded odd (and also why she might have forgotten 'counsellor'). i thought she was directing you to that thread to help Benjy, perhaps not knowing that there were others?

OMG just come back to this - sorry to post and run but DIY crisis in the house!

SO - am a little concerned that I already sound judgey to some people about the top-up.

Actually, it's not the top-up in itself that I'm worried about, it's, as someone said, the "slippery slope" - it just seems in my limited experience that once people start on bottles it tends to mean the end of bf fairly quickly.

Obviously some people have found it otherwise which is good to know.

Of COURSE it's her choice to ff or bf but I assumed that if you started out bf you would want to carry on past the hard bit to the nice bit (my experience).

I would have "failed" (and yes I would have seen it like that for myself) at bf if I hadn't had the support of friends and a councillor.

I don't want to see that happen to a friend if she doesn't want it to iyswim.

I don't live in the same country as her, saw her recently and advised her to go to a bf group and chatted to her about my experiences (as advised by a friend who excl. ff).

Sounds like I can't do much more - although you have reminded me that I recommended Kelly mom to her so must send her the link.

Sorry my thread caused so much aggro - I naively thought I would just get a couple of pointers - sorry some of you went to bed so late because of me !

Morning HaventSleptForAYear. Whilst I can see how you might think it's the start of a "slippery slope", it doesn't have to be, and isn't for everyone. Some people mix feed in the first couple of weeks whilst there is so little sleep so that the partner can help with feeding at night(if they couldn't express enough), and then later drop the formula. Obviously it's a fine line - once the ff affects supply it then becomes a problem.

In my situation, if I wasn't ff-ing at night, I wouldn't have been able to breastfeed at all, because I had to either rest a certain amount of hours per night or take medication which wasn't compatible with breastfeeding. So the bottle on it's own wasn't actually the problem - it "helped" me to breastfeed. The mistake (which luckily was correctable) I made was to think "oh well, I'm ff-ing anyway at night, so an extra bottle here or there won't do too much harm" when we were travelling for example, or when I couldn't bf in the room. That did affect my supply and confused ds, and it's there where the support helped me get back on the track I wanted.

Aith - ok

I wasn't objecting in the least to being pointed towards another thread - just explaining why I was not going there.

Second language or not, QS accused me and others of motivations and actions which don't stand up.

Sal22 - yes it's not so much the 10pm ff feed I think is a worry, I think that could probably work, and like you said, sounds like a sensible way to get a rest.

It's more the "extra" bottles that seem to be creeping in here and there and the self-doubt it seems to encourage.

I mix fed myself when I went back to work when DS1 was 3 mths - and went on to feed him for a year.

I always fed him when I was with him though, which is why I think the dad giving one bottle is "fine" but if the mum starts doing it I DO think it will ultimately mean her giving up.

Of course "ultimately" everyone gives up, but as I said before, I think it's a real shame to go through the pain and difficulties of the early days (her case and mine) and NOT get the great bits afterwards.

I also would feel I hadn't supported her if she gave up earlier than SHE wanted to.

But I promise I was equally supportive of a friend with twins who ff.

I think maybe I'm projecting the fact that I WAS grateful for advice and support on bf?

She knows where I am, will email her the link to kelly mom and then leave it at that unless she asks.

Tiktok
Re-read the thread please, re-read my comments, and think about this: How can I possibly accuse you personally about anything before you have even joined the thread?

I dont think I have anything to apologise to you for, as I have not accused you of anything. I apologised if I was overstepping the mark by directing your attention to somebody who actually needed help.

You seem to be unable to let this go, so I have to ask you: Have I offended you on some thread earlier? Do you bear a grudge towards me? As far as I know I have not ever posted on the same thread as you before, so I find your attitude rather surprising. Because I find it hard to belive that this is how you interact with most posters who have a different opinion.

Btw, I am hiding this thread now, as I have other things more important than tangling with tiktok.

Well, if you were my friend and you sent me the link, offered to help as you do etc, I would have appreciated it and would have asked if worried.

I understand what you're saying about "I think maybe I'm projecting the fact that I WAS grateful for advice and support on bf?", as I find myself wanting to tell people NOT to use bottles when out, as that's where I went wrong. But (and this is childish, I know) I don't think I would have listened if I heard that before my "crisis", as I'm sure I knew the risks to supply , but somehow thought they didn't really apply to me . Oh, I don't know, maybe I'm a bad example. Knowing that almost anything could be corrected was the best advice someone on my postnatal forum gave me, and knowing she (and others) were there for support helped me through 3 really hard days. If she knew you were there should you need her, that might be enough.

Oh, and I don't doubt that you were equally supportive of your ff-ing friend.

QS: your messages at 19:15:36 and at 21.55 were both after I joined the thread. On those messages, you said you were 'jumped on', that I had 'discredited' a bf organisation, that you were 'booed off', that people (like me) were 'defensive' and believed that 'experience counted for nothing'.

You have never offended me, I have never come across you before (unless you have name changed), and this has nothing to do with differences of opinion - as I explained. I won't explain again - it's boring for other people.

I have been courteous to you, and patient, and tried very hard to help you understand that while personal experience is very valuable on a talkboard, when you share it, you have to expect that other people may respond not with another 'opinion' but with information gathered from research. You chose to respond to that with the notion that this was 'jumping on you', even that it was 'booing' at you.

If all you want is for people to exchange personal experience only and no deeper or wider knowledge, then maybe you're right to hide this thread

And QS, please don't fall out with me or anyone over this. It's clear your intentions are good and you wanted to help.

But QS is not alone in feeling this way. Like me, perhaps all she has to back up her experience are thriving children.

Sometimes its the way things are said. A lot of effort is put into correcting posters, and often the OP, who could really do with some straight-forward advice, is left to sift through the fall-out. Seems to me that bf threads disintegrate into who can show off their superior knowledge, and I'm not interested in that.

I couldn't be clearer in saying 'this is my experience, and may not be useful to you' but still I am contradicted and made to feel as though I have no place in sharing it.

Worst case scenarios are often presented and so advice deemed unhelpful because it might not be the same for everyone. But it might be the same for someone.

Advice and experience are offered in the bid for the OP to make their own mind up. Each is as important. We ALL have something to contribute, and should all be valued. If the information shared is off-course, and you (whoever) feels the need to correct, do it in such a way that presents alternatives not dismisses.

Essentially it boils down to politeness and appreciating other posters offerings. Its not what you say, but how you say it sometimes.

I knew I should have left this alone. I've burnt my potatoes and ruined the pan.

bugger.

Sorry about the potatoes Foxy, but at least you have made me feel a little better. Thank you.

but YOU don't and CAN'T know in advance whether your fortunate scenario will be the same as the poster's. and top-ups damaging supply is not a 'worst case scenario', it's a bloody every day scenario that damages women terribly. think of the women you know who think they didn't produce enough milk and gave up bfing... there are THOUSANDS of them.

your advice, effectively 'topping up needn't harm your bfing, cos it didn't mine' is gorgeously seductive to someone in the throes of a bfing nightmare (i KNOW this to be true, i've experienced it) but if the supply isn't great it is downright dangerous.

why would someone take the doomsaying advice when your fluffy bunnies 'it'll be fine, eat well, relax, take a holistic approach' stuff is available? especially a vulnerable person who doesn't want to hear that there is hard work to be done. that's why your advice HAS to be contradicted, because it's playing with people's lives here.

if a woman with exactly my tits or your tits takes advice from tiktok, she's going to be fine in all probability. if someone with exactly my tits were to take your advice (as i did, to my eternal regret) then thanks very much, you've probably just spelled the end of my bfing. first do no harm, and all that.