Friend is "topping up" her 6-week old bf baby - how can I help?

[HaventSleptForAYear]

Am really stuck about how to give advice to bf friends without interfering.

Saw a friend recently who has been following a famous "routine" involving a bottle at 10pm (formula) and bf the rest of the time.

She now seems to be losing confidence and takes formula out with her "in case he's hungry". BF is still sore for her.

I BF DS1 with difficulty to start off with and have told her about this, but am worried that within a few weeks she will have given up and will then will feel bad about it (she has hinted at this).

Am really wary about interfering but feel sad if I can't help her out a little.

Any advice on giving advice ? (at a distance, will be over the phone)

aye, but foxy, as examples go, the fact that it was factually incorrect is actually rather telling...

How was I factually incorrect? I am so confused now.

why? you eat well, you feel better. You have a sense of wellbeing. Therefore you are better able to deal with things. Common sense, no? Diet is really important. How can that be factually wrong?

But what do I know? I've only bf 4 children, surrounded with friends who bf, have had problems, investigated and found solutions, applied them, failed, succeeded. But hey, I have nothing to offer on here.

Oh I'm getting arsey.

I so struggled in the first days of breastfeeding because of very dodgy advice and worry from my HV (basically, that feeding a newborn more frequently than every three hours or more than 20 mins at a go meant I wasn't doing it right and 'needed sorting out'.)

I desperately wanted to breastfeed and it so nearly went horribly wrong. I just wish someone with more experience had passed on their knowledge in those early days, it would have made a big difference to me and I wouldn't necessarily have thought of asking people for advice - I didn't know at that time that there was anything wrong with what I had been told, so didn't know there was any need to ask iyswim? In the end someone did, spontaneously, refer me to kellymom.com and although I never asked them for advice, I am so glad they did.

Perhaps you could acknowledge to your friend the trickiness of people offering unwanted advice and say that you're happy to butt out again, but also that you'd be happy to share your experience and knowledge if she feels it would be helpful?

I know people who have topped up at night and have found it hugely helpful to be able to do this and get more sleep, and I know people who have found it led to a diminishing supply and gave up bf. Personally, I would have found it helpful just to be given the information about the risks and benefits so I could make an informed decision based on my own particular circumstances.

Uh - well yes, I guess I did think you sounded a wee bit judgy. It's not a crime to say so, is it? And I've never reported a poster in my life, why on earth would I do that?

Tell me where to stick it if you like, I think I can guess though ! I'm sorry for upsetting you, it was just a genuine reaction to your post but I didn't mean to make you a villain. But I do think that a lot of people feel very judged about this issue, a lot of the time, even though nobody actually intends to make them feel that way. And I do think that is a real problem. It's not all your fault though ... I suppose

Dorothea, that was such a good post, and I totally agree with you - particularly your last para. Spot on.

Actually, just to clarify, it wasn't just a reaction to your post, but to others as well, so not all of my remarks were directed at you - I'm sorry if it felt that way.

not you, georgi. it was an x-post.

foxy, you said this: "I'm surprised by how many threads focus on the manufacture but fail to mention optimum nutrition. When stressed people don't eat, or eat crap for comfort. This will affect the milk. For example." it just isn't relevant or correct wrt the milk as i understand it.

a badly-nourished mother will keep producing milk for a long time, at the expense of her own body. (presumably this has a limit under famine conditions, but it's not one that will be reached in 6 weeks in the UK).

foxy, I think it's helpful to say that you should try to take care of yourself at all times.

But what you're saying is different, you are implying that making milk is dependent on being happy and well-nutrited (is that a word?!)

The danger of this is that it makes people assume if for some reason they are not able to take care of themselves (stress from an outside source, for example, or illness) then their baby must be suffering by proxy - which adds to their misery.

Of course you should eat well and take it easy and so on - for your own sake - but if for some reason you can't, or if you are horribly stressed or depressed, it doesn't mean that you will lose your supply and it's not fair to imply that you will.

Well maybe they feel judged because they are actually judging themselves, and transfer that onto other people, much in the way you did with me. I made a perfectly inocuous point about my personal anecdotal experience of friends who had slowly stopped BFing when they really didn't want to and your post back was frankly, vile.

Foxy, it would seem, that the experience of mums have no value unless it is backed up with checkable scientific facts. Empiric knowledge counts for nothing. Sadly, this is where also science go wrong sometimes, when scientists get single tracked and ignore the green dots because they are only looking for the red dots. Now, I suppose I will be asked to back up that claim too...

To the OP. Do you NOW see why you must stay out and not proffer your opinion? Your mere question have got a bunch of strangers online all het up and defencive.

Be sympathetic, and very careful in your advice. Best advice, encourage her to speak to her health visitor and a breastfeeding councillor.

OK. I don't think it was actually vile, but like I already said, I'm sorry.

And I am not "judging myself and transfering it onto you" - WTF? My own experience doesn't even reflect the type of thing we're discussing. I don't have some weird secret agenda.

Could you maybe just accept that I have apologised, and leave it?

And as well as not advising, don't even think about the issue, or speculate in your head because that might upset her too.

I really must learn to stay away from these threads.

it was not a vile post by any stretch Dorothea - it was a really good summing up of the situation, very well put indeed and had some really good points. It's just putting 'the other side' and it IS allowed, last time I checked!

OK, you've apologised, fine, but for the benefit of HG, how would you like the following:

critical
patronising
tutting
speculating
judgy
unpleasant
counter productive
pressure
disapproval

I don't really think my original post merited any of that, do you?

I thought Dorotheas post was very good. I did not read it as directed especially at georgimama though.

Holistic, part of the whole. Eat well, look after yourself, relax, maintain a sense of well-being, give yourself strength.

Not, eat well and your milk will flow and be gold top.

In the early days when I was struggling to bf, got stressed, baby picked up on the stress, was fraught. Relaxed, got a grip, got some good advice, baby happy. Another example of how stress affects the baby. Oh, I'm setting myself up here, aren't I?

see... so many people told me to relax and the milk would come etc etc (i was actually pretty relaxed, am not a stresser by nature) that i wasted weeks and put dd's health at risk and didn't seek specialist medical help until it was too late to rescue my bfing.

so that advice, while superficially comforting and no doubt well-meant, falls very much into the 'completely unhelpful' camp for me.

but i don't think that there's any problem with offering it on a site such as this, because there will be other voices with more scientific approaches, which is actually the kind of help i needed. it's just that there's no reason to get pissy about it when you're told that what you're saying isn't necessarily correct.

Honestly georgimama, it wasn't a personal attack. Why would it be? Don't you believe it might be possible that I have formed the impression that those attitudes are out there, because they are - not because you came along?

I know I hung some of it on the peg of your post and OK, like I've said, I did think you sounded a little bit judgy but I'm entitled to feel that way, without being branded rude and vile. I think we are getting to the point where it is you having a go at me, not the other way around. That'll teach me

To the op- I topped up my dd with one formula feed in the evenings.

It meant dh could take over for a while, it meant I could get more sleep, and it meant I could continue to bf in the long term as I was so much happier, less tired and more relaxed.

If I had struggled along without using formula I would most certainly have given up bf altogether.

Your friend will find her own way through the situation, she may continue to bf, she may not.
Support her whichever choice she makes and you will be a friend indeed.

I think probably all sorts of things are correct in bf...

Different strokes for different folks.

Some people want to throw their all at bf, some people want to try but it's not their number one priority, some people mix feed and manage (me) some people want to mix feed and don't (others) some people want to bf and should never be advised to introduce ff, some people want to bf and were successfully advised to introduce formula as well....

I know there's a "good" way to bf and the less good ways but for many people, they just need to get through the day so there are plenty of answers that will work and plenty of answers that won't work, depending on the circs.

I think it the best thing you can do is make it clear that you are their for your friend and will support her through her bf. You could maybe do a little research and find a local bosom buddies group. And even offer to come along with her if she's shy. Then she can talk with other bf mum and their feeding habbits and ways to tackle the sore nipples.

I don't think your being judgey. I think you are keen to support your friend who is bf and is struggling. You've spotted that she is topping up and are aware that this could be detremental to the bf which she seem keen to stick at.

Most women give up bf from lack of support.

As long as you are tactful and maybe just give her fact and not your opinion on her topping up, i don't see how you can offend anyone.

Good luck and what a lucky friend you have.

I thought Dorothea's words were a view from another point of view to yours - not all of it was about you as has been made clear, but the points she made in RESPONSE to yours re: 'slippery slope' comments etc were entirely valid and sensible IMO and argued from a thoughtful point of view.

Not your view, of course but as I said other views are allowed on here and wwe all have to accept that other people see things a different way.

cheers HG.

I'm off to bed now - sorry, OP for causing ructions on your thread! Hope things work out OK for your friend.

seems facts and other typos.