Friend is "topping up" her 6-week old bf baby - how can I help?

[HaventSleptForAYear]

Am really stuck about how to give advice to bf friends without interfering.

Saw a friend recently who has been following a famous "routine" involving a bottle at 10pm (formula) and bf the rest of the time.

She now seems to be losing confidence and takes formula out with her "in case he's hungry". BF is still sore for her.

I BF DS1 with difficulty to start off with and have told her about this, but am worried that within a few weeks she will have given up and will then will feel bad about it (she has hinted at this).

Am really wary about interfering but feel sad if I can't help her out a little.

Any advice on giving advice ? (at a distance, will be over the phone)

Are you sure that her loss of confidence in bf is linked to the fact that she is giving a 10pm formula feed? I can see that you do mean well, but I think you are making an assumption here -- it's not obvious to me that it is correct.

Soreness etc def sound like problems that she needs help with, but I don't think the formula bottle she is giving should automatically be regarded as the root of her problems with bf.

If you want to help her become more successful with bf, great. If you want to demonise that 10PM formula feed, that isn't particularly fair. Plenty of people give one formula feed at night and bf the rest of the time, and if your friend is struggling with bf the formula feed may be giving her a much-needed break from thinking about it around the clock. If she feels that someone is hinting she shouldn't even be allowed that break, she may be more inclined to feel the whole thing is too exhausting and just give up.

I am sure that perceived pressure to bf without ANY formula to fall back on is at the root of a lot of women just feeling that they cannot ever be "good enough" bf-ers, and therefore deciding to throw in the towel. (And before anyone says it, yes, that is just my anecdotal experience.)

I can't help it, I can't take it anymore... As much as I KNOW there's nothing better than breast milk to feed a baby, nothing puts me off more of breastfeeding than the "I'm always right you are wrong even if you are right this time" dogmatic attitude of some persons belonging to that unexistant "bf brigade".

[runs for cover but not without saying to the OP that advice that has not been requested is never welcomed ]

QS we are not robots, but individuals, I'm with you.

thing is we all have points of view, whats best for one isn't all best for another. I have a friend who tops up her ds at 11pm with ff, this is her third baby and she is now regretting that she never did this with her other two as it would have allowed her some more sleep as her dh feeds thier ds a bottle at night and allows her to go to bed and she bf at all other times. I also have a friend who had successfuly bf all her four children with no ff involved at all. i will not take sides with any of my friends as both are happy with thier choices, all i can say is hats off to all women bf or ff it doesn't matter, whatever is best for the mother to be happy and healthy

MeMySon&I: please tell me how I fit the profile of "I'm always right you are wrong even if you are right this time".

Thank you.

Speaking purely from personal experience, all of my friends who have topped up or given a bottle at last evening feed have ended up on a slippery slope to exclusive FF. None were BFing beyond 3 months. All claimed their supply wasn't good enough to carry on.

It seems pretty obvious to me that there was a link between their dwindling supplies and the fact that they were not BFing at every feed.

QS, one of the HVs i saw also told me the same about stress (although she herself was one of the main sodding causes of it) but when i finally accessed some medical bfing help at a specialist bfing centre in a hospital, i was told that the stress thing is overplayed and that it basically isn't true in the long term. this is despite the fact that it's a well-known fact, iykwim?

to the OP, tricky one, because all you've got to go on really is that she said she might feel bad if she's not doing it in a while... but then you don't really know if she means that or was just saying it.

the thing about us all being different is completely valid, the problem with that however is that if you are different in that you actually aren't that tip-top at producing loads of milk (or at least are producing it at the top of your game and don't know that yet) then you can really wreck things for yourself by giving formula. it's a tough one, you might be lucky giving 'go ahead, top-up' advice, or you might be unlucky.

Why do people feel that they should interfere in how other people feed their babies! it is none of your business. If she is having problems breastfeeding because it hurts, then you could suggest a breastfeeding counsellor. I breastfeed but my husband gives my 10 wk baby one bottle of formula a day. I desperately needed some time off and he wanted to feed her. I found expressing a nightmare. My daughter happily takes the bottle and breastfeeds. Many of my friends have done this too. Even if she does decide to totally bottle feed then as long as she and her baby are happy and the baby is fed, it is none of your business.

Will I be requested to provide scientific evidence? [tongue in-cheek comment]

I'm off, I really don't want to get the same treatment as QS. Besides... you are already feeling attacked even when my post only reflected my opinion which I have a right to hold, and it didn't make a reference to yourself... unless you see yourself as the person I described in my post, in which case is a lost battle.

Night night.

My last post in answer to Tiktok in case anyone is wondering about it.

key thing there is 'if she does decide to bottle feed' pudding. that may not be her decision to make. still and all, there may be nothing to do OP except shut up/tell her to post here.

and that is not fair, memysonandi. what is the problem with someone being factual and scientific, exactly? tiktok simply didn't attack QS, she merely suggested that what she was saying (and what the norwegian website was saying) wasn't, in fact, true. i'm sure that QS can take it, she's a big strong gal. and she doesn't appear to have changed her view, so everyone is intact are they not?

Exactly Aitch, if your supply is pretty low then the thing to do to increase it is feed more. I really want to howl in despair when my friends say,"I had to give up BFing, I didn't want to but DS/DD was just feeding all the time, he was obviously not getting enough. He's much happier on formula"

Feeding all the time is how you make more FFS!! He's not happier on formula, he's just stuffed full.

These are women who really wanted to BF too. They were let down by MW and HV who seem intent on not peddling BFing. They really do. I remember at one of my checks with HV I wasn't asked if I was BFing at all or exclusively, even though there is a pre-printed tick box for HV to fill in (in the red book somewhere, not sure where it is so can't check. I asked why I hadn't been asked about BFing and she said, "oh we don't like to put people under pressure."

If you done it, lived it, got through it but can't back it up from a text book, you have no place on a bf thread.

Many, many people avoid these threads because they expect to be pulled up on what they have to share. Its a shame, that's a lot of experience missed.

OP, ask her what she wants to do. BF can sometimes need great determination to get through it. Let her know you will support her and have the resources to help her if that's what she wants. Perhaps suggest she takes it a week at a time. I found that 6 weeks was a real turning point, when it stopped hurting and we turned a corner, so she might be closer to it than she thinks.

weeeeeeell, if you have done it, lived through it, and by dint of being one of the lucky women with a top-up proof supply have succeeded in your bfing, then your experience may be so subjective as to be harmful to other women...

at least the people saying 'be careful' are saying to be careful, iykwim? whereas the 'i did it, ergo you could too' stuff doesn't actually make sense.

HaventSleptForAYear, I think you must be a lovely friend. It is so easy to say nothing when we are worried about someone, but it takes a strong, true friend to stick their neck out. I have come across lots of new mothers who believe that topping up with formula will not interfere with BF. In fact I was talking to a mother of a 6 week old baby last week who said she had to give a bottle of formula at night or the baby wouldn't sleep through. I didn't know her well enough to know if she really wanted to continue to bf, so I didn't talk about the effect topping up can have on bf, but I am pretty sure she didn't think it would affect her supply. HV often don't explain this.
If your friend does want to bf, then I feel you should talk to her about the possible concequences of topping up. It might be best for the conversation to flow that way, chat to her about bf, give her some helpline/expert phone numbers...

Ooouhh. I just love it when Aitch throws the "big strong gal" at me. nortily

no, thats not what I meant. Perhaps someone has been in the OPs friends situation and has gone on to exclusively bf because of XYZ. They have, therefore, been there and done it and could therefore share their experience. Not a mention of a top-up proof supply. See?

In general, one offers advice if they feel they can relate. so if I come on and say "I was in your position, this is what helped me, it might help you" then someone else comes on and say,"yes, that might work, but this might also happen. why don't you try this ..." it is constructive and offers the OP ideas and choices.

If I come on and say "I did this, it helped me and it might help you" and get told "it won't help, don't assume it will, you are wrong". it isn't helpful and is confusing.

So I would rather not bother. Just as I wish I hadn't bothered on this one.

if the person is factually wrong, foxy, you shouldn't say? i don't understand.

depends on your interpretation of the facts and how they are applied. For example, stress may not affect the manufacture and production of supply, but in my mind, it affects the body, and taking a more holistic approach would be beneficial. I'm surprised by how many threads focus on the manufacture but fail to mention optimum nutrition. When stressed people don't eat, or eat crap for comfort. This will affect the milk. For example.

Anyway, all I am saying is there is a place for experience and a place for science, and it should all be respected.

i can't. i CAN'T.

don't let it be me. let it be someone else who points out that the optimum nutrition thing isn't actually, er... as simple as that...

Well, just to counterbalance what georgimama has said, I know several people for whom the occasional bottle was not a slippery slope; it just had its role to play. Another thread was recently started by a poster who said she didn't know anyone in RL who breastfed at all, apart from herself. Obviously we don't all know the same groups of people.

And I think that to term it a "slippery slope" is to employ a fairly loaded expression. Like "the thin end of the wedge". As if you think everyone will concur that it's a bad outcome, and that there is something pretty reprehensible about ultimately switching to formula. But y'know, maybe some of them actually switched to ff for reasons too complex and personal to share with you - you may not have been given the full story. Maybe that one formula feed wasn't always to blame.

People stop bfing for all sorts of reasons and they aren't always totally open about what those are. Just because a woman says it's her milk supply dwindling doesn't mean that is her real reason. Some women say that because they are afraid they'll be judged if they say that they couldn't get the hang of it, or felt self-conscious about it (sad I know, but common), or didn't have enough support. I think there is a feeling that to claim a dwindling milk supply is a better-sounding reason (though in fact it clearly doesn't convince everyone, as shown here) and less likely to invite judgement.

I do think that breastfeeding is so important, and most people need far more support than they get; but still, it depresses me when people are critical of/patronising towards women who eventually switch to formula feeding. Tutting about the occasional bottle of formula and speculating in a judgy manner about where it might lead can really make someone feel guilty and inadequate. It's unpleasant and counterproductive. I reckon it is the reason people start using phrases like "breastfeeding brigade" in the first place - often, I believe people only say that sort of thing because they are sensing pressure and disapproval, and it puts them on the defensive. Who does that help, exactly?

I've made myself all gloomy.

FGS! IT WAS AN EXAMPLE! As one of many, many things which go to make the whole.

sob

So I'm tutting about the occasional bottle of formula and speculating in a judgy manner am I? Unpleasant and counter-productive?

I don't think so. I offered my experience of what my friends have told me. As some of them had children before me, and I had no opinion or interest in whether or not they BF bofore I had my own son, I doubt they made up their accounts to ward off my "pressure and disapproval".

Obviously it is patronising to suggest that it is better for a baby to be BF than FF. I don't think I ever suggested that there may not be good reasons why someone would FF rather than BF. But that BFing is better, all other factors being equal, is just true, isn't it?

I would tell you where to stick your "I'm so open minded and non judgy but actually really bloody rude" post but then you'd probably report me so I'd better not.