I HATE all this pussyfooting around!

[pandaface]

Iv just read a post about someones ff story, and have also commented on it.
Why are people so scared to say, "Well, at least try bf, its the best you can do for your baby."

Instead of all this "Is a mothers right to chose how to feed."
Well, yes, but it isnt the babies choice to be raised on powdered cows milk, compared to the PERFECT milk that is breastmilk.

Yes, sometimes its hard, and downright painful, but surely, as mothers, its something we should EXPECT to have to do? Motherhood isnt easy, so why is feeding the first thing people skimp on effort with?

breast shields? I think I meant nipple shields. Was 8 years ago... Actually, was 8 years ago to the day that I gave up. I remember the date! I have had wine, too !

Ok, Monkies, I'm sorry for my angry post to you.

Sad for you Ellbell that you went through all that after your dd's birth. But admiration that you tried so hard for her .

Did you ever get any bf counselling or support from a lactation consultant while you were struggling to bf, of did you do all this on your own?

ellibel thank you for that thread

fwiw i think you did brilliantly to try so hard, i wonder how many of the people who fopund bf easy and so condemn others would have done so in reality?

you're also not alone; my sister had hersearly for pre-eclampsia but her experience mirrored yours exactly in every other respect,

sabire... I did get help/support, but it was always given with an undertone of 'I don't really know why you're bothering when you could just give formula and solve all your problems'. HV was wonderful and once sat with me for about 2 hours (thus making all her other appointments for the day late!) because I was so upset that I couldn't get dd to latch on without nipple shields... But the HV couldn't get her to do it either, so not that much help in the end!

Incidentally, I also had lots of problems (pain related - probably due to flat nips) with dd2, but persevered for 4 months. I finally got proper advice with her at 4 months, but by then had moved to mixed feeding so it was a bit late. Still, it was better than with dd1.

Women have been breastfeeding for over half a million years, its only the last 60 years that formula has been used.
The human race survived without it before, I dont understand why it cant be done now?

It was introduced to save lives, but it is so over-used now, and tbh, abused.
My first post was AWFUL, I am sorry, and deserved a lashing for it. I was having a bad day, which is no excuse.
However, I just feel sad that so many women rely on formula, and talk about it as though the have NEEDED it, when we managed for thousands of years without it.
There are other options without formula; donation etc.

awww, pandaface, good of you to come back and make amends.

fwiw, it is a very very complex issue. It is hard sometimes to read threads and not be judgy but, and a big but, it is a better idea to stick around read all you want and resist posting sometimes. the complexity of the issues around breastfeeding is mind boggling. It is complex on many levels. As long as you keep an open mind and sometimes resist the temptation to post, even, you will slowly have some of your questions and confusion answered.

hey, sometimes i write stuff and delete whole paragraphs before posting.

Good on you to apologise, pandaface.

It's worth remembering that this forum is very well-established with lots of history, and people here are very interested in bf and well-informed about it.

So if they're not saying something that seems "obvious", it might be that the "obvious" isn't so "obvious" after all.

As kkd says, this is a very complex issue, ie, the many and varied reasons why people don't bf. That's why people offering simple solutions (let alone judgements!) get a rough time here and rightly so. If it were a simple problem it would have been solved years ago.

I completely agree with you that formula is over-used as a solution to bf problems - I had to fight to keep breastfeeding dd1 when she wasn't gaining weight properly - but as far as I can see this has nothing to do with laziness or lack of moral fibre on the part of new mothers, and everything to do with lack of information and support.

It's all too easy to demonise ff-ing mums for taking what looks like an easy route out. But as this thread shows, a lot of the time mothers haven't wanted to give up bf-ing, there just hasn't been the advice and support needed for them to continue. Usually the advice from ill-informed and over-worked HCP's is, "Top up with formula." It's quick, it's easy, and it's almost guaranteed to succeed - where bf-ing isn't.

So if you want to direct your ire at someone, direct it at the Government, who have grossly underfunded maternity services in this country. Or direct it at the formula companies who market their product specifically to make bf-ing fail. Don't have a go at other mums who are just trying to the best for their babies.

pandaface... thank you for apology. I apologise for calling you ignorant (touchy subject, obviously).

I can't say for sure that my baby would have died without formula. However, she was too sleepy to feed without NGT for a good two weeks and I couldn't get any milk out, even with pretty much continuous pumping, for 4 or 5 days (and then only a drip). So I think it is fair to say that without formula she'd have been pretty ill.

pandaface

ds1 would be dead without formula, he was intolerant of a protein in my milk and dropped to almost 4lbs several weks into his life, soya formula saved his life. I think long enough ago, people did just accept that was a cause of death, being unable to feed properly.

I think ff probably is over used, but lives are so very different now. Women juggle woth with children through need (demise of family wage / house prices etc), they face peer pressure to ff they once wouldn't have, babies born exceedingly premature to very ill mums....

I'm so glad I can bf now but I regard myself as lucky. I also regard myself as lucky to live in an era of choice

btw donation is great but so many units don't deal with it- thats the system not the mum

FWIW I feel there is a huge difference between those who have thought about both options, maybe tried breastfeeding and for whatever reason it hasn't worked, and those for whom breastfeeding was never a consideration.

agree with you suburban - funding would help, but also there is huge variation of advice even between HVs in one surgery!

HV 1: DDs weight was slow, so HV suggests ff'ing 'if you're worried...'

HV 2: Calmed me down and encouraged bf'ing

HV 3: Looks about 12 years old and asked me for advice.....

Real hit and miss.

A breast feeding clinic would have been a huge help at the surgery. Drop in for advice, and if necessary, fast track to the GP (i.e. mastitis, thrush etc)

Women have been breastfeeding for over half a million years, its only the last 60 years that formula has been used.

Yes and don't you get it - women have careers now - for me breastfeeding would have prevented me from continuing my career - I of course could have had '9 months off from my job' but say goodbye to my career at this stage. I think the pressure on women to breastfeed is unreal and totally unreasonable in relation to the demands on women today and the way careers go

Becka, there has been a small number of women who did not breastfeed, in just about every society that we know of. These babies were wet nursed or had animal milks. Just to put the historical picture!

Women have always worked too - always. It's only in industrial societies that this has generally meant separation from their babies at a young age.

In today's world, the stats are pretty clear: working women are more likely to breastfeed than women who stay at home, though of course realistic maternity leave makes it easier to breastfeed for longer than the first weeks. Even so, you do not need 9 months off your job to breastfeed - where've you got that idea?

The pressure if there is any should be directed at government and at employers, to make breastfeeding an easy, comfortable choice for all. Maternal and infant health should be prioritised - healthy mothers and babies make a better world for us all.

I chose to give breastfeeding priority over my career. Not just bf, but also being there with my baby nearly all the time.

DH was made redundant 6 months ago.

I still don't regret my decision.

I didn't say that you would need 9 months off to breastfeed, my point is that for women with very dedicated/specific careers taking 'normal' maternity leave is not an option and that is the hard facts of it, i dont regret my decision to formula feed whatsoever

I'm quite new to mumsnet (my dd is 9 weeks) but I've spent many hours reading old threads on here about feeding, when I was struggling with bf. It really can be sooo hard and I was real close to giving up and buy some formula late at night! But I didn't cuz I knew bf is best for a baby. In the last few weeks it feels like we finally got the hang of it, dd is putting on weight and I don't have to feed her constantly anymore. I can't help feeling a little bit smug now... I guess it's just human nature. And when I'm at mother & baby group and see all ff mums I can't help feeling that they took the easy way out. Of course I don't know all of their stories and I do know a couple of mums who really tried bf but just couldn't carry on. But to just ff straight away without even trying bf... is not right I think. Perhaps ff is a little bit too "normal" in this country...? I was quite shocked really to see how widespread it is (I'm a foreigner). Anyway, debate about this subject seems to be really inflamed and I couldn't resist adding to it!
PS. thanks to everyone who have posted advice & support about bf (TikTok etc), it's really been a great help.

Becka, would you have wanted to bf if you could have had more time off without making any difference to your career?

No, I am very educated, but have a very holistic view of life, my focus is on relstionships, my mother is very traditionalist, but no I would not have taken any more time of

Becka,

Perhaps before you have any more children you might take some time to educate yourself about the implications of formula use and the rights of working mothers to expressing breaks etc.

I also have a holistic view of life, and value relationships, but I had 6 months maternity leave and continued to breastfeed both my children after returning to work. It may have a short term effect on your career progression but holistically I felt my childrens long term health was worth it.

I guess it's just a question of priorities. For me, my children take priority over my career progression.

Monkies

annamama- well done you've done really well, you should be proud! If your baby was born April (? my 12 weeker born 7th april) do come join us on the april postnatal thread

I went back to work when my eldest was five and a half weeks old, and continued to bf her until she was 18 months.

In Germany there is a law that you are not allowed to get a postpartum woman back into the workplace within 8 weeks of the birth. This is done to protect the health of women and babies........

I am bewildered by your post, Becka. Why should a holistic view of life, a traditionalist mother, a high degree of education and ESPECIALLY a focus on relationships make you want to ff and go back to work sooner rather than later? I do not see how the things you mention would lead you to that conclusion - they led me to the opposite one.