I HATE all this pussyfooting around!

[pandaface]

Iv just read a post about someones ff story, and have also commented on it.
Why are people so scared to say, "Well, at least try bf, its the best you can do for your baby."

Instead of all this "Is a mothers right to chose how to feed."
Well, yes, but it isnt the babies choice to be raised on powdered cows milk, compared to the PERFECT milk that is breastmilk.

Yes, sometimes its hard, and downright painful, but surely, as mothers, its something we should EXPECT to have to do? Motherhood isnt easy, so why is feeding the first thing people skimp on effort with?

oh, the OP is off doing his maths homework by now...

Much better Talia!

Ta SD!

Friday night boredom, doncha just love it.

theSuburbanDryad - "off you fuck" is utter genius.

I can't lay claim to it BS. Think it was Ggglimpopo who first told someone "Off you fuck"

.... but.... (don't flame me please)

it's interesting that in Norway, where 98% of women are bf on discharge from hospital, apparently they simply don't ask you when your baby's born whether you're going to bf or ff. All women are expected to bf (unless, I assume it's written in big letters on your notes that there are medical reasons why you can't bf), and pretty much all women do. And that's in a country which had worse bf rates than the UK a few decades ago. Obviously they value babies being breastfed more than they value women feeling free to choose not to breastfeed.

In the UK we bang on about 'choice' in relation to everything.... it's been the mantra of the last decade, and the beating heart of the consumer boom. We've just extended the concept of consumer choice to the way our babies are nurtured. I honestly have rarely heard feeding discussed in a way that pays detailed attention to this issue from the baby's point of view, where people seriously try to see this through a baby's eyes.

We think about what WE feel comfortable with, and what WE want to do, what 'feels right' for US ('us' meaning 'me - mummy'). You can just tack the baby's considerations onto the end of that... ie 'happy mummy/happy baby', 'I want to do what's right for me.... and my baby' (translate: I want to do what's right for me, because if it's wrong for me then it's automatically going to be wrong for my baby too).

Please don't all jump on me at once - I'm not criticising individual mums - it's just my observation of the way this topic is approached generally. We all - breast and bottlefeeding mums - discuss this subject in a way that overwhelmingly focuses on ourselves and our own feelings.... it's just the way it is.

I HATE all this.

sabire, there was quite a bit of discussion about the norwegian figs last night. i thing the 98% figure is a massive red herring. by that reckoning you'd have me down as a successful bfer, and i was not. not by a long chalk.

90& still bfing at three months... although it's not clear whether that's exclusive or not, that's more interesting.

I totally agree that everybody can make thier own choice on how to feed thier baby but can I just point out that on these (regular!) threads that often get so heated, people are very rarely questioning the motives of mums who have tried to bf but not continued for whatever reason, or who have genuine psychological reasons (like your friend UD) for not bf. The 'criticism' (if that's the right word) is for those who don't even try, yet people seem to take it so personally and attack the op, when they have bf their child. The OP said "Well, at least try bf, its the best you can do for your baby." That's all.

The impression I get on here is that a good proportion of mothers who don't breastfeed don't "choose" to go down that route - in the sense that it's not their preferred option. But at some point, they felt that bf wasn't working, either for them or for their baby. And making them feel bad about it probably doesn't really help.

PSW - i would never judge someone for not wanting to bf. Ime very few people don't want to bf for no reason at all. Those that do are mainly influenced by social or familial pressure.

"why is feeding the first thing people skimp on effort with"

That's actually made me nauseous.

I kind of agree with your thread title mind you, because I do think there's a lot of "happy mum, happy baby" gloss that ignores the very real grief many women feel at breastfeeding not working out for whatever reason - but you are so spectacularly out of line with your OP that you need large, heavy things dropped on you from a great height until you:

a) see the error of your ways
b) have your ruby red shoes taken from you just before your feet wither up

I wouldn't judge either UD but surely by talking about it we can help counteract familial and social presuure against breastfeeding and help mums make an informed choice. Often the OP on this kind of thread is worded in an inflamatory way but perhaps we could give people who can't express themselves as well as we might like a break.

It just bothers me when people feel the need to defend thier feeding method when they aren't being attacked.

I know it's a very emotive issue but to me it always reads something like this...

'I think everybody should at least try to bf, it's good for the baby'

'Well I tried and I couldn't. Are you saying I'm a rubbish mum?'

'No! I'm talking about people who didn't even try'

To be fair though, people who have been on MN for more than 5 minutes and still persist in starting these threads know what they're letting themself in for!

Califrau!! LMAO at your spray!!

There are those with real issues who cannot bf for emotional or physical reasons but there is also a whole group of uneducated people out there who ff because they think bf'ing is disgusting (and not those who think it's disgusting because they were abused etc..).

Thanks to Little Britain and Channel 4 we have a whole culture of poeple who watch tele and think ff is the norm and bf'ers are hippies.

In the hospital where I had my dd, the ward was full of young mum's who thought I was some mad hippy because I chose to bf.

So yes, I do think some people do only think about themselves when they choose to ff, but those who make an educated choice are the exception and they should not be attacked or made to feel bad about thier choice. Every mother wants the best for thier baby, some people have to conceder thier own happiness in that equation and some are just uninformed.

In Norway, there is a different outlook to bf, it's concidered fairly normal, it's still seen as a bit different in the UK.

like the spray Cali!

PMSL (almost literally) at off you fuck, we have to find out who originally said that.
Have to say I agreed with OP's first line and third line to a certain extent apart from the bit about skimping on effort with I think that may be one of the most offensive things said on MN in 2008.

"sabire, there was quite a bit of discussion about the norwegian figs last night. i thing the 98% figure is a massive red herring"

Not really - not in relation to this topic. 98% of women bf in hospital. In other words, almost nobody says 'ummm.... can you stop right there Nurse Ratchett - don't put my on my breast because I'm not going to breastfeed him/her'.

I mean - can you imagine the outrage that would would cause here....? (midwives just placing all babies into BN positions near their mothers breasts, without asking 'are you bf or af')!

As I write this I have a picture of Jordan in my mind...... saying 'ewwwwww! and looking horrified as her newborn baby instinctively inches up the vertiginous slopes of her implants....

I personally know women who just WOULD NOT let their baby anywhere near their nipples...... They'd be utterly appalled. (they're perfectly nice people by the way and good mums - they're just completely unfamiliar with breastfeeding).

i do not see and i never will see the value of trying to convert people (even Jordan) who don't want to bf. help those who do, leave the others alone.
if the norwegian experience teaches us anything it is surely that a culture changes with willing participants - weren't the norwegians in a worse state than us when they started this programme? kudos to them for making the funds available (my noreg pals went to a baby hotel after hospital, all paid for by govt) but that 98% figure started somewhere, and it wasn't with bludgeoning people into bfing, but supporting the people who wanted to and normalising bfing in the culture.

PSW - i know very, very few mothers who made and educated choice about not bf-ing, with no other pressures. In fact, i'd go so far as to say that mother doesn't exist, as there are always social pressures. As sushipaws points out, our culture is geared up towards ff-ing, it is seen as unusual to bf (although less so now than 2 years ago) and the television and popular culture that we are bombarded with doesn't help.

And i think it's hugely insulting for the OP - or anyone - to come on and say, "Well I think every mother should breastfeed." I think everyone should give me large amounts of cash but it's not going to happen is it?

If you are truly interested in changing the way that our culture views breastfeeding, why don't you pop along to a Breasstfeeding Picnic near you!

Sorry Aitch but i am pmsl at "Even Jordan"!!

No educated choice going on there, methinks!

I never got hung up on the whole breast or bottle feeding thing. Bonding with your baby and doing the best you can for him/her involves a lot more than how you feed him. If artificial feeding was bad for babies then it would be banned wouldn't it?

you wot, gg?

You wot about wot Aitch?