was this a stupid thing to say?

[robinrednomorenowemptybreasts]

my cousins just had her third baby, baby is a week old, when talking to my mum after mum had been to visit, mum said the baby was going every three hours, and that she got to have a cuddle after the baby had been fed.

when mum said the baby was being bottlefed, i said oh thats a shame, mum got quite annoyed with me.
i would not of said that to my cousin or aunt or anything.
and now im wondering if i was out of order saying that.
please be honest, i won't mind if you say i was, i just thought it a shame

moondog - you know, I don't care if you think I am a schoolma'am. I'm on the side of mothers who get genuinely upset when they read a hurtful comment, and on the side of breastfeeding supporters who tread carefully, knowing that how you express yourself matters.

"As you know, I do my best to be helpful on many occasions," you say. Yes, I have seen that happen, and then you ruin it for yourself and people like me and others, by playing into the hands of people who actually don't want to be helpful.

"Well,I feel what I feel ok?"

For goodness sake...feel what the heck you want, but have some sensitivity when, where and if you express it.

Just like I am doing here, in this very post.

Whose hands am I playing into?
I'm not sure what you mean by that.

cola - you have totally lost it now. Stay sensible and reasonable and a good discussion can emerge. Harp on about short and miserable lives and the Iraq war and we have no chance at all

scottishmummy - you need to get out more, if you think it's only on mumsnet that these issues are given the importance they deserve...or read a bit more, or something.

OK, moondog....I'll spell it out for you.

There are people who actually don't like breastfeeding and breastfeeding mothers very much, for whatever reason. This reason may be personal - they think 'the breastfeeding brigade' are out to get them and smother them with smuggery and force them to breastfeed. Or it could be political, or financial/commercial.

It is in their interests, and the interests of formula manufacturers, to depict breastfeeding supporters as fanatical and judgmental. These people do not want to be helpful to breastfeeding mothers, and it's their hands you're playing into.

Cut it out.

swmum If I have understood this correctly, the report you linked to was mis-reported, and here's how.

The study (full text of the study, not an article misunderstanding it is here for you to read exactly what it really does say)

It compared two groups not three. The ' High nutrient group' had enriched formula. The 'Standard nutrient' group was a mixed bag of babies who had been fed either unsupplemented donated banked breast milk or a standard term formula. Note - they didn't actually distinguish between the two!!!! They just chucked the standard-formula-fed and banked-milk-fed results together, to compare against the enriched formula results!

You can see how this is a bit right?

It's like feeding one group a diet of apples and onions, and the other a diet of oranges. And then concluding that oranges are better than apples. Not possible to conclude that unless you can seperate out the apples from the onions, IYSWIM?

Oh, and they only used 76 babies (in comparison to the many many studies out there that use thousands of babies.)

The journalist who wrote the BBC article should have been able to understand what the conclusion actually was, and the flaw in the construction of the study. They did not understand, frustratingly.

I agree with you that reporting like this is really confusing and can lead to scepticism about who to believe. The only way to really be sure is to either read the research yourself, or decide who you are going to trust to read up and convey that message to you on your behalf.

Hint; Tiktok, Hunkermunker and Welliemum are three reliable sources that I shamelessly rely upon to do my dirty work for me . They really know their onions.

I wish you luck in your research, and more importantly, with your wee bub!

sorry tik have i miss read, the likely hood of all the deathly diseases I may inflict, or the obese children i may create, or the fact they may loose a limb? No I think not, so what I would like to know is if my child develops a problem, by the way one of mine does, am I to believe this is my doing? yes, and if one of your children (bf's) develops a problem that's to do with?

Well that is a valid point Tiktok, but I also get extremely irritated at the 'not in front of the children' attitude often expressed by those fighting the cause.

I also thing that a lot of people take a really masochistic pleasure in blowing idle comments up out of prportion and claiming in self righteous manner that they have been hurt and judged.

No,they merely want everyone else around them to believe that they have had heinous crimes committed against them.

Again cola - not necessarily but one of the reasons a lot of people choose to bf is that it does reduce the risks of these things.
I will make it clear:
bf does not prevent
ff does not cause
but bf does tip the scales further in your favour

"am I to believe this is my doing? yes, and if one of your children (bf's) develops a problem that's to do with?"

Most of the children of smokers are healthy. Some children of non-smokers get asthma. Some people who eat a diet rich in fruit and vegetables get bowel cancer, most people don't - even those who eat crappy junk food most of their lives.

That's why we need medical research to help us make the connection between our lifestyle choices and our risk of developing disease. The links aren't obvious to the individual because none of these things have a simple 'cause and effect' mechanism.

I'm sure you can accept the logic of this in relation to other health issues. What's stopping you understanding it in relation to infant feeding?

I breastfed all three of my children. They may well become hypertensive, diabetic and obese in later life. There are many lifestyle and genetic factors at play here. All I know is that in breastfeeding I've done something that I know will reduce their chances of this happening to them - not increase them. That gives me peace of mind.

So you think it's a 'not in front of the children' thing, do you, moondog? Implying that secretly I think nasty thoughts but don't share them in case I offend people? And you're so honest because you open your mouth and it all comes out and that's better?

Well, I don't have any secret thoughts. You'd find I expressed myself in real life exactly the same way as here, honest about formula but
careful not to hurt people with thoughtlessly expressed statements which might make them think there is something else I'm hiding.

Enough from me to you. I'm tired of it.

Oh c'mon Tiktok, accusing me of implying you have nasty thoughts is plain bizarre and completely off the mark! I don't know how you managed to come to that conclusion. You have never judged or criticised and I am sur yuo are the same in RL.

I accept your points though.
You know full well I pay very close attention to all you say.

I don't understand your quote about 'not in front of the children' in any other way, though - that was directed at me, for (as you implied) not being fully honest as the 'children' would not accept it.

Explain it in some other way, why doncha?

oh please, I have no misunderstanding of breast feeding as I have explained all day long, I have a problem with the misunderstanding that bf's place on a ff mother who makes a valid choice for her child, I am the mother I make my choice, I have not commented on a bf's mothers choice of feeding, so why can so many people comment on mine with the, oh so sad, awful, comments, its ridiculous.

Out of all the posters on here today, not one has been ridiculed, yes ridiculed, I refer to the little ohh comments, about the choice of breast, why is that, because it was your choice, you only have to re read to see that bf mothers feel they have the right to pick apart another womans feeding choice, this is puzzeling to me.

I am proud to be a mother who cares for her children, and bottle fed formula milk to their infant, so why is that an issue for you?

cola, this is a talk board. People discuss their feeding choices, and others ask questions about them. It's called having a conversation. No one has been intrusive, and indeed, the discussion with swmum (about the reasons behind her choice) was done respectfully and with her permission at all stages.

It is equally the case when people are asked why they choose to breastfeed, and in fact we have had a number of threads with that very topic.

If you are not happy with discussion, then, um, I'm not sure why you are on a talk board

tik did you read my posts today? As for why am I on here I asked a question, and stated a fact in relation to this thread, thats what you call a talk board isnt it? your words

tik who is we? "we have had a number of threads with that very topic."

it is a shame especially if the mum had wanted to bf and couldn't. so no, not out of order.

cola
you are right that there should be no condescension or judgement of another woman's feeding choices. I agree completely. A choice is valid, whatever it may be.

But understanding the reasons behind those choices is fascinating, and important. That may come across as 'picking apart', but hopefully those questions can be asked with tact, compassion and with consent, obviously.

Where things generally descend into mayhem on these threads is when someone justifies a choice with a reason which is not valid. Like if I said that I bf because I KNEW for sure that bf my baby would make her grow up to win a nobel prize, someone (I hope) would gently correct me, and tell me that my reason was wrong, although my choice to bf was still mine to make. Choice = valid, reason = wrong

It's just really important to accept that if I say something that is just plain WRONG, it gets corrected, even if I end up disappointed that what I thought was true, is actually not.

Coz if someone reads this thread and takes my reason away for themselves, I've just perpetuated a dodgy myth. Not great.

Cola, do you really believe that there are no risks associated with formula?

I know that some mothers choose to FF. I'm sure that there are all sorts of reasons why they have made that decision. Some will have struggled with BF, others will have planned to FF from the start.

Everyone has to make that decision for themselves.

What I don't understand is why, having made that decision, you have decided that all the research is rubbish.

I respect that you chose to FF- you did what you felt was right for you, but that doesn't mean that there aren't risks to FF.

People are trying to defend the research, not trying to attack you.

Have read half of this and jumped to the end -- and am with cola and swmum all the way.

Everyone else is saying I don't judge you, it's your choice but by the way it's a bad one.

If anything is guaranteed to prevent good bonding with a newborn it's the stress, guilt, misery and often depression associated with failed breastfeeding and the judgement thereof. And a happy baby has a better immune system and better start than a stressed and unhappy baby.

I'm a six-month bf-er 3 x over but have seen the other side with my sister. Her unhappiness and a judgemental hv made me want to weep for her.

stuffitllama - I'm not saying that. Can you take me out of your 'everyone' sweeping statement, please?

(You must have missed my post when you jumped to the end.)

girlfrommars, I have not at any point said I do not believe any scientific evidence, i have said continually that it was my choice to make and I stand by it, thats it in a nutshell, read through and you will see.

Although I would like to add, in respact to stuffitllama,s comment, I have seen mothers bullied into breastfeeding, and watched them crumble, I have been tut tutted by a room of mothers for bottle feeding and defending that right, and I understand it must have been hard for your sister.

unfortunately it is pc to bf and unpc to ff, people are afraid to stand alone against a mighty force sometimes.

m'kay...except

since far more people ff than bf, the 'mighty force' is ff, by a large margin.

bf is the minority choice, the option which is more threatened

Colacubes - you really are absolutely wasting your time trying to get your point across here. There are far too many women with tunnel vision who are convinced they know everything.
Some of the supposed 'evidence' of the danger of forumla I've heard quoted is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever read and I say that from the standpoint of somebody that does accept breastfeeding is best for mother and infant.
If formula really was the poison some of these posters seem to think then we'd all be dropping like flies wouldn't we? Rather than living longer and healthier lives than ever before.

Nancy
Who thinks formula is poison? Really? You're talking nonsense!

I'm serious, if you truly think someone on this thread believes that then have the decency to point it out so that we can jump all over them.

Otherwise, please stop making stuff up.
It's completely unhelpful.

And "Some of the supposed 'evidence' of the danger of forumla I've heard quoted is the biggest load of nonsense I've ever read"

Which evidence? Tell me, please, so that I can see it for myself. Be fair, if there's dodgy evidence out there I'd like to know. I don't want to be swallowing any guff.