was this a stupid thing to say?

[robinrednomorenowemptybreasts]

my cousins just had her third baby, baby is a week old, when talking to my mum after mum had been to visit, mum said the baby was going every three hours, and that she got to have a cuddle after the baby had been fed.

when mum said the baby was being bottlefed, i said oh thats a shame, mum got quite annoyed with me.
i would not of said that to my cousin or aunt or anything.
and now im wondering if i was out of order saying that.
please be honest, i won't mind if you say i was, i just thought it a shame

Well I have a very independent 2yr old who refuses to get in a pram would rather walk everywhere and explore as long as mum is within here eyeline, she was ff, did not co sleep, and was not fed on demand.

Also I have to add the "incapable of excepting science" comment little carrot, I have a BSc degree so thats your hypothesis blown out the water, as I can assure you I understand science very well, thats why I can comment on the pitfalls as well as positives.

coal, but you are 'excepting' science....you are 'excepting' science from your comments on the evidence that formula has risks!

(don't usually comment on typos, but that was too good to miss....)

cola, do you not see, that my using your personal experience of your daughter as a trump card to the science, you are being very, um, unscientific?

my = by
coal = cola

(typos catching!!)

Tiktok:
I'd be interested to know more about your rather off-hand mention that research may show that co-sleeping and ffeeding is a problem?????

I'm sure I'm not the only person who co-sleeps and ffeeds...

(won't be able to get back on til tomorrow but will check to see if you post anything)
Thanks.

I admit that I'm surprised to hear that, Cola, given the way you put your thoughts across. Did you routinely deny the validity of thousands of properly constructed research studies whilst doing your degree, without any evidence or reasonable argument to the contrary? I'm assuming not, or you wouldn't have graduated!

Why keep referring to individual experience? You know it's irrelevant to a wider discussion.

As a scientific thinker, do you accept that thousands of studies show risks of ff?

Or is the earth flat?

I refer to my dd regarding jackstini, who I do believe bf etc, this was her evidence of bf being good for her dc, so I refer to my personal experience reg ff etc, please try to keep up.

The comment as regards my inability to except or understand science is shown to be untrue by the fact that I have a 1st BSc degree in psychology, which is if you know anything about science and statistics the ultimate resource both in research of and the statistical findings you so love to quote, this is why I can through experience of science be sure that I understand it adequately, and use the findings intelligently.

yes of course you are right lc, I by chance stumbled my way through a 3 year degree course, and somehow managed a first,

We can perhaps talk peer to peer then cola.

May I repeat my question?

As a scientific thinker, do you accept that thousands of studies show risks of ff?

I did mean immunisation as a matter of fact but that's not for here.

Am still with colacubes, I think this debate is falling apart but her position seems the most reasonable. People will always cherrypick from different scientific studies vlc that's why people can believe different scientific theories. After all, there's a Nobel prize winning chemist who doesn't believe HIV causes Aids so I think we should all accept that in this very controversial field there will be studies that appear to prove contradictory theories.

In which case it really does come down to personal conviction, and we should accept that. Ff-ers seem to be able to accept that a lot more readily than bf-ers, it seems.

But scientifically speaking bf vs ff is not a very contraversial field.

Emotionally and socially, yes, scientifically, no.

No one is cherry-picking studies, stuffit. Science agrees on this one! It's not a matter of opinion, or how you read it, or which papers you read, or what day of the week it is, or whether the Nobel prize went to a maverick or not (Henry Kissinger, architecht of Cambodian carpet bombing, got the Peace Prize, FGS) ... the science is consistent and uncontroversial. Cherry picking not necessary

Emotionally and socially? -- that is just as important as the physical scientific issue.

Stress affects the immune system. A stressed baby has a poorer immune system and can bond less well. Is that compensated for by the fact of bf?

I can't imagine how anyone could study this, and so I can't imagine how this issue can be proven one way or the other.

"yes yes i agree the health issues being beneficial, But my feelings are this, formulas are a great feeding method and is not a harmful alternative, just an alternative."
Lc this is my comment from yesterday page 4, this has been covered.

Please listen to my opinion, all along I have stated, this is a choice I made, with knowledge and understanding, and it was a good choice for me. That has been my position all along, I have not blown apart bf, or cosleeping, its not my right to tell a bf mother I feel sorry for her partner because she took away his ability to share in the closeness and bonding of easing your babies cries when they need nourishment, or the fact a father can not spend time alone with his child without mummy in the next room, breast in hand, because thats not my position to comment, nor a valid opinion as I have never bf, as I do believe many of you have never ff.

I hsve not quoted science, it was a choice, thats what you are all missing and disrespecting.

Ladies all this flat eather thing makes me laugh! Ah well if that is how you view me then so be it! But I really can't stress enough that I am not ignoring research/science just questioning it and wondering if it paints a true picture in every instance. I'm certainly not one to deny studies - just not blindly nod along to everything I'm told. Not that I'm suggesting anyone on here is - simply that I like to debate.
Would it help if I said that I do believe in a physiological sense that breast is best but that i don't believe formual is a bad alternative? That's really what I've been trying to say.
And moondog if your post is to imply that I haven't actually spoken to these people you'd be wrong. Problem is if I told you why I'd be giving away too much about my personal/professional life which I don't like to do.
As I've said before I thank you for your views and opionions - I think it's really interesting (and entertaining) to hear what other people think.
What I do find most facinating is the need of some to call others names but if you like to refer to me as a 'flat eather' then at least you've made me chuckle! I hope we can all see the funny side!

i know breastfeeding has benefits
but refuese to accept ff has risks

that's what it comes down to

madness!

Everything has risks. Crossing the road has risks. What I'm saying is that I don't think the risks of ff are nearly as drastic as many make them out to be.
Breast feeding has risks but those are maybe not measured in the same way or as accessible for a scientific study.
For example for me if I bf on demand I know I would risk exhaustion and low self esteem and therefore potentially pnd. I might risk creating an unhappy home life and therefore and unhappy child. I can't be sure that will or will not happen but they are very real risks in my mind for my life.
For me personally that is why I have made the choice I have.
And please let's remember that there is so much more to mothering or parenting that just what we feed our babies. And so much more to life in general.

Cola, you know what, I didn't spend much time standing in the next room while DH was with DD or DS "breast in hand". DH was much better at the winding than me, and was an enthusiastic nappy changer, baby carrier and settler and bather.
Again, that's just anecdotal. But I do wonder whether there's any scientific evidence that men are less likely to bond with their children if they are breastfed. Somehow I doubt it.

Why would you risk "low self-esteem" if you breastfed Swmum?

then how is there proof that a mother doesnt bond if she doesnt bf, and as I said I do not comment as I did not bf, it is just an assumption as yours is about ff, no?

Thanks Pooka how are you and your brood?

We are a co sleeping, sling wearing, baby signing household and have fed in a variety of ways as shown in my previous post. Both my children are happy and confident. Neither are particularly clingy so hopefully no 3 will be the same.

I find slings mean I can get so much more done as baby is happier staying close to me whilst I get on with the jobs round the house etc. Although I am going to invest in a nice pram as I find them useful when my back flares up as I have a prolapsed disc.

Can I just add that it is entirely possible to demand-feed a ff baby, and co-sleep and be bonded and responsive as you would with bf...
I still consider myself very much an 'attachment parent' despite having ff dd.

Cola "formulas are a great feeding method and is not a harmful alternative"

You KNOW the evidence says it is harmful, though cola. Because you're a scientific thinker who can read research papers, right?

Increased risk of cot death is "harmful"
Increased risk of respiratory illness is "harmful"
Increased risk of diabetes is "harmful"
Increased risk of gastrointestinal disease is "harmful"

This isn't a debate about respecting choices at the moment. We covered that earlier. (and by the way, I'm not disrespecting you)This is currently about whether you understand science or not.

You say you do. And then you state a conclusion which SHOWS you don't.

I HATE knowing that posting the truth will make people worry and feel bad.

But I hate even more people posting that they understand science, and are therefore in a position to tell others that yep, formula does no harm, it won't increase a baby's risk of lots health problems.

Make your choice, fine. Tell people it worked for you, fine. But don't go around telling people that things are harmless when they are not. It's bloody irresponsible. And it forces someone else to state bald and very uncomfortable facts just to stop you from perpetuating a damaging myth.

I think we should all agree to disagree.

I bonded very well with my ff ds. I dont know if I would have bonded better if I had bf.

Also I can see why some women could have low self esteem by demand feeding as the could get very tired. My cousin bf and was exhausted and the doctor said her pnd was caused by her demand feeding. Once she started to expess and her dp could do some of the feeds she started to get much better.

I'm happy I ff my ds and I dont care if anyone thinks I am a bad mum for doing so because I tried to bf and it didn't work out.
But as I said earlier I will try to bf my next baby.

Erm, no. It was you who said that it was not your right to say to a breastfeeding mother that you feel sorry for her partner not being able to share in the closeness and bonding of being able to satisfy the hunger of his child.

At no point have I said that a mother who chooses to formula feed does not bond with their child. At no point. And on this very thread people have referred to the ability to have skin to skin contact with a baby whether it is formula fed or breastfed. As far as I can see no one has suggested that a mother cannot bond with a baby if they formula feed.

My comments have related mostly to the health risks of formula. But since you raised the issue of men not being able to bond through feeding, I suggested that my experience did not suggest this was a problem.

At the bottom of it though, IMO the health of the baby and mother come first. There are many ways for a man to be involved in the raising of his baby, even if the mother breastfeeds.