was this a stupid thing to say?

[robinrednomorenowemptybreasts]

my cousins just had her third baby, baby is a week old, when talking to my mum after mum had been to visit, mum said the baby was going every three hours, and that she got to have a cuddle after the baby had been fed.

when mum said the baby was being bottlefed, i said oh thats a shame, mum got quite annoyed with me.
i would not of said that to my cousin or aunt or anything.
and now im wondering if i was out of order saying that.
please be honest, i won't mind if you say i was, i just thought it a shame

Congratulations Mummyhill (was in due Sept 05)

ladies I've skimmed through this morning - boy have you covered a lot of ground.
I don't have much time right now but I wanted to repeat my point.
I'm not saying that all the research is rubbish, what I am saying is that there are considerably more factors in determining whether children or mums have problems - be they health, educational etc - than just whether or not they breast feed.
I think it is essential to make this point because other wise many woman would feel that their child had whatever condition/problem because they didn't bf when in fact it has nothing to do with that.
For example if I bf my child and then feed it junk food from six months send it to a crap school and never bother to pay any attention to it's homework then I doubt he'll be heading off to oxford. Do you see my point?
Now I'm not saying that if I ff feed him he will be a healthy little genuis either because there are so, so many other things to consider - many of which will be out with my control as he travels through life.
What I'm getting at is that bf or ff are not nearly as big a deal as we make them out to be.
As I think anotehr mum said - a well fed happy baby is much more important. Well that's my opionion anyway.
My sil bf on demand for nine months and also coslept. I respect her for it - I don't admire her because it's not better than the mum who ff and puts their baby in a cot.
But i know her way of life would seriously impact my state of mind were I to adopt it so I don't intend to. Just like she would be unhappy living as I do.
The point is we love each other dearly, respect each others views and don't judge. We are happy that each other are happy with our lot and choices.
If more women could take that approach - regardless of reseach and science - I think we'd all be happier - bf anf ff.

swmum I am impressed with your coolheadedness!

But I will say that bfing does not have to be continuously on demand, or involve cosleeping, or last 9m. It doesn't need you to be a self-sacrificing mother-earth hippy type, or an 'attachment parenting' guru, or, well, anything at all really.

I know you're clever enough to realise that how your SIL approached bfing isn't the only way to do it so I won't labour the point.

swmum - we have repeatedly explained to you that no one thinks breastfeeding/formula feeding are guarantees of anything, or predict anything, in an individual. You keep returning to make points as if we have said that formula predicts one outcome and breastfeeding another. We repeatedly say there are other factors involved in how a child develops. You keep returning to respond as if people have denied this.

Read the posts, and the links.

The example you give, of a baby who is breastfed for six months and then fed junk food and is ignored educationally who will then not achieve much academically, illustrates nothing except your refusal to have an open mind.

Breastfeeding responsively for nine months and co-sleeping is better for a baby than formula feeding and being put to sleep in a cot.

That doesn't mean all parents should be forced to do it, or judged if they don't do it. There are other aspects of parenting that could even cancel out the effects of feeding/sleeping.

But responsive breastfeeding and comfort close to the parent at night have been shown to enhance attachment, reduce stress in both baby and mother, promote normal neurological and biochemical development, and lay the foundations for health emotional, physiological and psychological development.

It's not controversial to say that. You may think that in an individual case, it might even increase stress in the mother, and she might find it impossible to do. In that case, she is entitled to balance that in the equation, and decide to put her own needs first, in the hope that this will enable her to be a better parent in other ways.

Tik tok I'm amazed that you keep missing my point.
Remind what it is that you do again - i.e. are you a breast feeding counsellor or the like? I seem to recall that from another thread but I may have got it wrong. I'm not meaning to be intrusive I simply wonder what authority you speak with?
I have a very open mind - hence my view that we should all be allowed to do what is most suitable for our families.
But I point blank refuse to accept what you are saying about co sleeping and feeding on demand for nine months being a 'better' way to parent.
I'm quite sure if I had the time which sadly I don't, I could find a number of studies which contradict what you have said. Indeed I have spoken to a number of experts (some leading midwives and sleep/behavioural experts - this is an area in which I really have done my research though I can't really quote them directly as it was off the record so to speak) directly who have told me quite the contrary to what you are saying.
And in my personal experience my sil's positive experience is not the norm. Any of my friends who have tried such a path have found it created massive difficulities for them and their babies and would not recommend it - needy insecure babies who couldn't cope without being permentantly at their mum's side. That is not the kind of child I want.
But it has worked for my sister in law so far - though her children behave in certain ways I wouldn't want to encourage, she and they are happy and that's all that matters.
And that is just the point - the one I've been making all along - that is one school of thought and there are others.
Individual circumstances are far more infulencial in determining an out come.
In that area I truely believe it is opionion led. I would never dream of critising anyone for their parenting style, all I can do is speak about my views and what I have found through my reseach.
Good luck to every mum I say, however she chooses to feed/sleep/parent. But making sweeping statements that it is better to cosleep I think it not a good idea.

I was told by my midwife that co-sleeping was dangerous.

I couldn't share a bed with ds as I am far too scared I would roll over and suffocate him. But I know people that do co-sleep or have done and thats cool with me if thats how they feel.

I do sometimes have ds in our bed in the morning when we're having a lie in and I'd love to just feel asleep giving him a cuddle but until he is bigger and I'd could feel him if I was to roll over.

I think it should be each to their own. There are pros and cons to everything in life but someone shouldn't be penalised for their decisions.

well said swmum, tik, did you bf?

Itsahardknocklife, I was told that too and the HV went up to our room to check his crib looked slept in.

why do people seem to think its better to ff rather than frequent bf?

saying babies are more content on formula. they don't look content to be they look stuffed and uncomfortable. but some seem to think this is a better way for babies to be ?

puzzles me

I'm a breastfeeding counsellor, swmum, though I also have an academic interest and experience in the science of attachment and early parenting.

I think, like you, that we should do what we think is best for our own families and for ourselves. This may mean deciding that for us, some of the research into babycare/child development/infant feeding is not applicable, or strong enough, or whatever, to change our preferences. OK by me!

As I say, breastfeeding responsively (I don't like 'demand' feeding as a phrase!) and co-sleeping enhances many health and developmental processes - read 'The Science of Parenting' by Margot Sutherland, or 'Why Love Matters' by Sue Gerhardt for a good explanation of the science behind what I am saying. You will not be able to find any good scientific literature which says anything different - the advances in biochemistry and neuro-science in the last 10-15 years have revealed, and explained, a lot. This has gone way beyond the differences of opinion you are are so keen on!

None of this means that someone who formula feeds and who does not co-sleep cannot be a 'good' parent, or that bf and co-sleeping is the only way to be a 'good' parent. Many good parents choose not to do this. But this does not remove the science about what enhances early physical and psychological health. This is not a 'sweeping' statement. It's based on evidence.

By the way, the evidence that parenting responsively in the way I am describing does not produce needy, insecure babies is well-established. In fact, the opposite is the case. Responding to your baby's needs by feeding when he cues (this does not have to be by breastfeeding, though it's easier to do it if you are), comforting at night (by sleeping close by, if not actually in the bed) without leaving the baby to cry, produces confident, secure babies who cry and whine less as older babies and toddlers.

I have references for this going back some 40-50 years right up to the present day - it really is a corner-stone of our understanding now - but I don't think you'd be interested in reading them.

To repeat - I don't judge parents for choosing other ways of parenting. This is not the only way to be a good parent. But I do ask you not to promote suggestions that it produces 'needy, insecure' babies...your own observations and experience do not trump the research into (now) thousands of outcomes. If these babies are needy and insecure, it is not because they have been bf for 9 months and co-slept....

What an odd HV!
I was shown in hospital after having dd how to breastfeed lying down, and she was put in the bed with me for the first night. Had a bedside crib which was lovely because co-slept and fed lying down, but more room.
Should add that ds slept with me more than dd, but was massively less "clingy". Anecdotal evidence not really sufficient. Like my "smoking never hurt anyone in my family" analogy yesterday.

cola - yes, breastfeeding and co-sleeping are my choices as a parent.

swmum

Indeed I have spoken to a number of experts (some leading midwives and sleep/behavioural experts - this is an area in which I really have done my research though I can't really quote them directly as it was off the record so to speak)

I wanted one of the cots that attach to the bed but our bedroom isn't big enough.

The jury's still out on this, but it may actually be safer for ff babies to sleep separately from their parents. We already know there are some circumstances that affect safety, such as a smoking parent or an unsafe bed.

Just anecdotal evidence but my breastfeed on demand and co-sleeping, slung baby has grown into a highly independant toddler.

She practical ignores me out in public as long as I am in the room she doesn't need me, apparantly that is a good sign of attachment.

I will be interested to see how things pan out with baby number two.

I think all babies are different despite how they are fed.

You can get a very clingy ff baby and a very independant bf baby.

I think I am coming to the conclusion that some people are incapable of understanding science. They will continue to think the sun revolves around the earth (which is flat of course) because that is all they can see, in their own personal experience. And, naturally, my opinion that the earth is round and revolves around the sun is interesting, but is only as valid as the flat earth theory.

Neither is more true than the other. And can't we all accept each other's point of view?

How do you explain something to someone that can't comprehend anything outside of their own realm of experience?

(littlecarrot has woken up grumpy today)

Mine too BE! [wink}
She was 2 at the weekend and is v independant.
(Was bf on demand as baby and still bf for 10 mins each night now, although did not co-sleep much.)

vlc, I have come to the simpler conclusion that some people are unable to see, not because they are blind, but because they refuse to look.

Oh and I found bf on demand oops, responsively (much better way of describing it tiktok!) made things MUCH easier for me, but that is personal experience. dd went anywhere and everywhere my boobs went!

VLC - good post

People who refuse to believe that the way they feed their infants has an impact on health can be known as 'Flat Earthers'!

There is an intermediate group, who believe that breastmilk has health 'benefits' but who can't accept that this means (has to mean, logically can only mean) formula has health risks, and who get very cross when this is pointed out.

Not sure what to call them....

Kiskidee - or look, but don't like it so deny it!