A reason not to BF that I had no answer for, any thoughts?

[bohemianbint]

I recently qualified as a peer counsellor and the training was great. However, I met up with a friend of mine the other day whose daughter is about a month old.

She had BF up until the day before I met her but decided to pack it in and had just started FF. Her reason was that she already has a son who is 11, is very busy and didn't have the time to physically sit all day and BF.

I didn't say anything, as she wasn't asking for advice, she'd made the decision and had already acted on it. But it struck me that I have no idea what to say to someone who sites this as a reason to give up? I remember when DS went through growth spurts just sitting on the sofa literally all day with my boobs out and everything else went to pot, and whilst this didn't bother me I can see how it would be a deal breaker for some people.

So what can you say to that? Obviously FF is inconvenient in the prep time and faff, but does it eliminate that all day sitting around during a growth spurt? Interested to hear what you think...

A shit tip not sit tip(although i like the sound of that)

I agree you can still do housework and BF (unfortunately) I get really stressed if the house is too bad but with 2 toddlers my standards have slipped.

It's true though virtually every woman with DC once seeing me BF DD2 especially would feel the need to tell me why BFing failed for her, I thought this was very sad as if you have to have a reason for not BFing and they felt they had to tell me. A lot of the reasons were "my milk never came in" " I never produced enough milk" when coming across this I would just nod but feel very sad as again it's a lack of understanding about BFing. It's the supply and demand thing you have to get the baby on as soon and as much as you can in those first few days to get your supply going, if you have only ever been around FF babies you wouldn't know this (I didn't) BF don't go on that magic 4 hour feeding clock that is ingrained in so many peoples minds. My Mum would say "when is she due her next feed, what time?" and I would say "when she wants it" to her and a lot of people demand feeding is still an alien concept.

Anyway I digress I would NEVER judge anyone for not BFing, unless you live that persons life you will never know what other stresses go on and whilst one person could BF another might chose not to. Honestly, I couldn't care less how someone else feeds their baby, it's their choice as long as they have had the right education about it, thats what annoys me most.

I wish to God they could prescribe a dose of "the laid back pill" - I definately would be on repeat prescription... but if you are someone who feels the stress it only impacts on all your loved ones especially the babes.

I think for BF to work you have to be chilled and that is not something that is natural to everyone.

I am pleased with my four months and I still have my sanity and a husband and kids who don't think I am a ferocious beast.

We aren't all made of the same stuff.

Cucci. Thats me. RElaxing and not noticing the housework doesnt come naturally to me either. I did manage to mixed feed well, so that was a good achievement for me.

I think for BF to work you have to be chilled and that is not something that is natural to everyone.

Except the vast majority of mothers managed to feed their babies without recourse to formula prior to its invention - without suffering obscene levels of PND and personal collapse. I don't think we've suddenly become much more stressed over the past few decades surely? Especially now our families are half the size they were in those days and we have washing machines, central heating and antibiotics!

I think for BF to work you have to be chilled and that is not something that is natural to everyone.

Except the vast majority of mothers managed to feed their babies without recourse to formula prior to its invention - without suffering obscene levels of PND and personal collapse. I don't think we've suddenly become much more stressed over the past few decades surely? Especially now our families are half the size they were in those days and we have washing machines, central heating and antibiotics!

Sabire you are obviously an earth Mother - well done you.

Carmen

I am reminded of why I usually never go on BF/FF threads by so many of the comments on here.

What an understanding, supportive lot you are.

hazeyjane >

Oh how familiar this is!

Did anyone ever say anything to you about nipple vasospasm?

Did your nipples hurt so much in the cold that it bought tears?
Did they go white, and blue and red?
Did you feel like someone was sticking burning hot needles in the ends of them?

Vasospasm is a much underdiagnosed problem for many many women. It's often confused with thrush and can be a major reason for giving up. I hope nobody here ever has to have this aargh!

Expat
I try and ster clear too if i can

steer clear, even

Erk - I really didn't mean that to sound like it sounded!

I interpreted Cucci's comment about breastfeeding only 'working' if you're 'chilled' as meaning that breastfeeding isn't feasible if you're someone who's a bit controlling and prone to stress.

I just can't accept that breastfeeding is something that only certain personality types can do. Or that something that only people with small/easy families/a tolerance of mess/an ability to go without sleep etc etc are able to cope with.

I think we should all be asking ourselves what it is that's changed about our expectations, our experience of birth and our experience of mothering that a biological feature central to maternity since the dawn of time has gone from being something that almost everyone does and the majority of people cope with - despite having much greater practical challenges in terms of larger families and a heavier domestic workload - to something the majority of women can't cope with and often find very distressing!

I'm not pointing the finger of blame at anyone - I'm just surprised that so few people can see this for the sort of revolutionary change it is. In a hundred or so years we've gone from almost everyone breastfeeding who was physically capable of doing it, to a situation where only a small minority of women are breastfeeding for a few weeks - most giving up because they feel they can't cope with it.

I'm just amazed that I seem to be the only person who finds this bizarre and troubling. I remember reading a description of the almost wholesale change to artificial feeding of infants that's happened in the west as being the most radical change in the entire history of human nutrition, and it's something that's taken for granted by almost everyone.

And PotPourri - maybe we mean different things by 'stressed'.

People in the past had to deal with terrible life events all the time at levels that are unimaginable to us - bereavement, financial insecurity, illness and bad housing were the lot of the poor - who made up the bulk of the population in this country.

I just can't accept that people these days have worse mental health that than people did then. The difference is now that we see emotional suffering as invariably pathological rather than a part of normal life experience and a whole industry has sprung up to identify and treat it.

As breastfeeding is no longer a social norm, new mothers simply don't see how breastfeeding works until they attempt to do it. We have no frame of reference, of alternative ways of nursing of how to deal wiht a house and other children, in some cases it must be impossible.

I honestly think those you have a good breastfeeding experience is down to good luck and reasonable support.

Even when mothers do breastfeed, if it doesn't end well that can cause bad feeling too. My friend sucessfully breastfed her beautiful baby boy for 4 months and weaned him to formula. Yet because the weaning was beyond her control (reasons which I am not going into)she talks about how she 'failed' to breastfed, it breaks my heart as she never failed on any level.

I battled to breastfeed my DD partly because of allergies in our family, partly to try and deal with her entry into the world when everything went wrong. I had thrush, crackled nipples etc yet I had the good luck to encounter a couple of midwifes who pushed me vaguely in the right direction and had access to a wonderfully supportive breastfeeding support group.

I sadly spent the next few months throw up and in a lot of pain for months with gall bladder problems and two hospital admissions seperated from DD (4 and 6 months old) yet I was again lucky thatI had a supportive family and husband who brought me an electic breast pump and the baby as much as they could and we kept on breastfeeding.

If I had not had the good luck and support I doubt I would of nursed past the hospital ward. If she had been number 2 or if we had special needs or other life issues to deal with I could easily see us using formula full time.

I would consider myself very committed to breastfeeding but I have grown to be far more realistic over the last 20 months. I now hope rather than state I will, breastfeed my second child.

To the OP, I doubt any mother will ask such a question to you. If the mother cannot find more time to breastfeed her baby, how could you do that for her ? Of course you could suggest that the mpthers asks friends and family to help her but I would guess a mother would take this step before asking for further help from the OP.

As breastfeeding is no longer a social norm, new mothers simply don't see how breastfeeding works until they attempt to do it. We have no frame of reference, of alternative ways of nursing of how to deal wiht a house and other children, in some cases it must be impossible.

I honestly think those you have a good breastfeeding experience is down to good luck and reasonable support.

Even when mothers do breastfeed, if it doesn't end well that can cause bad feeling too. My friend sucessfully breastfed her beautiful baby boy for 4 months and weaned him to formula. Yet because the weaning was beyond her control (reasons which I am not going into)she talks about how she 'failed' to breastfed, it breaks my heart as she never failed on any level.

I battled to breastfeed my DD partly because of allergies in our family, partly to try and deal with her entry into the world when everything went wrong. I had thrush, crackled nipples etc yet I had the good luck to encounter a couple of midwifes who pushed me vaguely in the right direction and had access to a wonderfully supportive breastfeeding support group.

I sadly spent the next few months throw up and in a lot of pain for months with gall bladder problems and two hospital admissions seperated from DD (4 and 6 months old) yet I was again lucky thatI had a supportive family and husband who brought me an electic breast pump and the baby as much as they could and we kept on breastfeeding.

If I had not had the good luck and support I doubt I would of nursed past the hospital ward. If she had been number 2 or if we had special needs or other life issues to deal with I could easily see us using formula full time.

I would consider myself very committed to breastfeeding but I have grown to be far more realistic over the last 20 months. I now hope rather than state I will, breastfeed my second child.

To the OP, I doubt any mother will ask such a question to you. If the mother cannot find more time to breastfeed her baby, how could you do that for her ? Of course you could suggest that the mpthers asks friends and family to help her but I would guess a mother would take this step before asking for further help from the OP.

Sorry

In my mothers day of having me and siblings (1960's) the norm was 10 days in hospital after giving birth, with strict visiting hours. This meant new mothers had a 'bedding' in with their babies with no outside worries. Today, we are rushed in and out in 24 hours and expected to just get on. All very well, but most of us do not have the extended family network nearby, my mother lived on the same street as her mother, aunts and sisters. The support was on tap

I think this also has an effect on being able to breastfeed, there is no recovery time. My mother and MIL let me have a 2 week bedding in with all my children, they took over the housework, cooking, washing and older children for 2 weeks after each baby was born, which meant all I had to do was rest, cuddle and feed the baby. It was so important to recover from birth properly, we have lost that today

minorityrules - when my Mum had me (1975) you spent a full 10 days in hospital after a baby and weren't allowed out of bed to do the toilet for the first 5 (bedpans at the ready) babies were kept in a nursery and only allowed with their mothers on a strict 4 hourly rota, even the BFing one although my Mum cannot remember anyone BFing. The MWs fed the babies at night to allow the mothers to sleep.

Oh how times have changed, I totally agree with the 2 weeks bedding in time but chances of that happening for the majority of is is about 0.

If you spent 10 days in my local hospital after birth I reckon your chances of succeeding with bf would go down - not up! Nearly half of all bf babies born there are supplemented with formula within 12 hours of birth - they're simply useless at helping mums get started and just hurl formula at you at the first sign of trouble!

I agree Sabire - if the majority of women around you are FF, the MWs are "suggesting" you FF and your in pain and knackered from the birth and with a baby not latching very well chances are you will reach for a bottle.

With DD1 she was jaundiced, sleepy and in shock from being born I think, she wouldn't wake up enough to feed every few hours a different person would come and shove my nipple into her sleepy mouth to no avail. I was threatened with tube feeding/bottle feeding and practically accused of starving my baby. As I am so bloody minded I told them to get me a pump and I would express for her (thanks mumsnet I was clued up a bit).

DD2 was born at home straight on the boob and I told the MWs to leave me to it, although at no time did a MW/HV ever ask how BFing was going (looking at DD2 you would have guessed how it was going though).

That's mainly because they want you out and you can't go home if the baby hasn't fed and of course in 24 hours you only colustrum and no milk

When I had my first, you got 3 days in hospital. I was lucky, the midwives were great and happy to help with BF. Then 10 days, every day a midwife came into the home, I don't think that happens anymore

I still think we all rush and are rushed to get back to normal after birth and that has the knock on effect that BF suffers

Trouble is as well in hospital formula arrives ready made with disposable teats all very convenient compared to the struggle I had to establish breast feeding with boobs so engorged Jordan would have been jealous!!! I could have been easiy tempted if I wasn't so commited to bf. As for feeding on one arm, by 11 weeks my exclusively bf ds weighed over 17lbs not easy to manage on one arm. I still managed and he was ds2, ds1 has sn which would have been all the excuse I needed to give up.

I've also heard that especially with big babies that it is implied that colostrum is not enough and the baby is crying because it is starving. To tell a new mother her baby is starving as she has no milk yet is horrible, no wonder they reach for a bottle if being told that. Thing is is how is the milk supposed to come in if the baby is being giving bottles and not allowed to suck, talk about a Catch 22? Hence the "I didn't have enough milk" I hear a lot.

Thankfully I had mumsnet when DD1 was born don't know what I would have done without it. My own Mothers advice was to get them on the bottle straight away that way you know how much they are getting, they will sleep longer and be more content and anyway only poor people who can't afford formula have to BF!

In case my earlier posts are misunderstood I would like to clarify that ds3 was exclusively breastfed for more than a few days - a couple of weeks iirc. In which time his poo get returning to green - no yellow nappies. When I introduced bottles they were introduced as top ups- so he was fed until I wasn't actually producing anymore milk from either breast then he was being given about 4oz as a top up. Which is a HUGE top up for such a young baby. In between the next feed I'd try and express (so he could have breast, then EBM, then formula) and was getting at most about 1oz out. If I tried to express without leaving at least 2 hours I was getting less than 1oz out was lucky to get half an oz.

These weren't imaginary supply problems.