A reason not to BF that I had no answer for, any thoughts?

[bohemianbint]

I recently qualified as a peer counsellor and the training was great. However, I met up with a friend of mine the other day whose daughter is about a month old.

She had BF up until the day before I met her but decided to pack it in and had just started FF. Her reason was that she already has a son who is 11, is very busy and didn't have the time to physically sit all day and BF.

I didn't say anything, as she wasn't asking for advice, she'd made the decision and had already acted on it. But it struck me that I have no idea what to say to someone who sites this as a reason to give up? I remember when DS went through growth spurts just sitting on the sofa literally all day with my boobs out and everything else went to pot, and whilst this didn't bother me I can see how it would be a deal breaker for some people.

So what can you say to that? Obviously FF is inconvenient in the prep time and faff, but does it eliminate that all day sitting around during a growth spurt? Interested to hear what you think...

Sabire I don't have a dangerous toddler I have a severely autistic non-verbal older child. That is nothing like a toddler. It is like this (to the point where a few people asked me if dh and I had written a book under a pseudonym).

The dangers of assuming that you know all about someone else's life by basing it on your own. Having a crazy toddler does not give any insight into life with a severely autistic child (I have a crazy toddler now, he's a walk in the park compared to his brother).

A slow to feed bottlefed baby may be even slower to breastfeed. I have no idea. I was just explaining my situation in an attempt to explain why different people can have different experiences and why even if you can't immediately see the problem there may well be one.

Agree with princessosyth.

Well the OP did say that the "mother didn't really BF". I still don't understand that comment. Was the baby living on air for a month then? Why can't we be positive. Well done to her for BF for a month as she obviously found it difficult

I find this thread really judgemental.

Luckily yurt comes along just as I'm about to blow up and is the complete voice of reason.

OK Yurt - I'm sorry for getting it wrong. I didn't realise your child was autistic.

I just start from this position: the vast majority of babies in this country are only breastfed for a few weeks.

If you ask 500 people why they haven't breastfed for longer you'd get 500 different reasons. As you say - different people have different experiences and if you can't immediately see the problem that doesn't mean there isn't one.

If we assume that every single one of these people is better off bottlefeeding than breastfeeding (given their personal circumstances) then don't we categorically have to say this: that breastfeeding is simply too difficult for most people, especially those who have more than one child - and we know this because only a tiny number of women do it for more than a few weeks. And the evidence isn't that women give up breastfeeding when they want to - 90% would have liked to continue longer.

Is this where we are? That breastfeeding just isn't feasible for most people for more than a few weeks of their babies lives?

If you accept that every single person who stops breastfeeding because of the challenges they're facing IS actually better off bottlefeeding then you'd have to say 'the majority of women and their babies are better off not breastfeeding' - that categorically breastfeeding is harder and more labour intensive than bottlefeeding.

How have we got here?

Sabire - you asked me last night to comment on the extract from an Australian study. Very interesting, and I look forward to it being published - that's the only way to get the full picture as they include their sampling methods and study methodology and so on. It's perfectly plausible hypothesis and from what they say, it appears that breastfeeding for longer than 6 months has important benefits.

carmen - I have caught up with a lot of posts, and among them, I note you have mentioned at least four times something to do with 'sitting around' or 'sitting on a sofa' all day, even sitting in a 'shit tip' as being a requisite of breastfeeding, and something you could not do....this I find faintly judgemental, sorry!

It's as if breastfeeding is some sort of self-indulgence for the preturnaturally slobbish and lazy...something you are proud not to buy into

Breastfeeding mothers are no more and no less likely to want to sit on sofas all day, and no more and no less likely to accept dirt and mess.

To imply that breastfeeding has to mean accepting dirt and disorder and a desire to 'sit around' all day is crazy...most breastfeeding mothers are like everyone else with small children, busy, active and probably as clean as they need to be

I have been considering this problem as I have a 5 year old DS who just started school and a very active 2.5 year old DS and DD1 arriving in May and a husband that is gone before I am out of bed and only home at 7pm. All I can figure is that I will have to be more flexible and wing it and see what works for us - rather than with my last two where I stuck to a strict routine and would sometimes be stuck on the lounge for 40min to an hour at a time. Practically speaking it might mean half a feed before I get everyone in the car and head to school and the other half in the playground or nearby park or cafe after they've gone in. I BF'd DS1 and 2 for greater than 12mths and I don't plan on shortchanging this one just because she has come along 3rd ... I have gotten a hug a bub and will see if it is possible to feed her in that when the need arises as well.

"most breastfeeding mothers are like everyone else with small children, busy, active and probably as clean as they need to be"

Good job you can't see the tip I'm sitting in right now Tiktok!

But my house is a bombsite even when I'm not breastfeeding.

It's all tactical obviously: six months of exclusive breastfeeding plus six inches of dust on every surface = 3 children with guts of steel!

cazcaz - thanks for your story. I hope your little boy gets the help he needs. Clearly, his bronchiolitis and other infections were unrelated to feeding...and you were let down by the system which did not correct his tongue tie, and which did not join the dots with his symptoms

I don't think this would skew the stats though - DiGeorges is very rare, and large studies (which the stats are based on) absorb these 'outlying' situations without them having any impact on the figures.

Sabite - obv I am making an exception of you, as you are clearly a lazy slob 'sitting around' all day surrounded by crisp packets and chocolate wrappers

Sabite = Sabire

Haven't read the whole of this one so I maybe repeating.

I don't actually remember much about BF dd2 (who arrived when dd1 was about 2 and a quarter) so all I can assume is that it wasn't much of a problem. Your second child just has to put up with interrupted feeds, feeds on the go, whatever (kind of like they do for sleeps). I do remember that dd2 fed more at night (I think to make up for interrupted day time feeds). Anyway - it worked - dd1 (who is quite high maintainance) was happy and as far as I can tell never felt neglected.

I would just say to those that are pregnant and worried about how they'll cope - just give it a try.

my sister was born when i was 12 and my brother was 9. my mum breastfed her. We were old enough to occupy ourselves pretty safely most of the time, my dad took over with a lot of the activities we did. and of course we were at school a lot, so that helped. also we were keen to help out with the baby as she was such a novelty. i don't think we were too much trouble in the early months.

I think I was extremely lucky growing up that whenever I saw anyone with a new baby (aunts, neighbours, mum's friends) they were breastfeeding, so when I had my babies it didn't occur to me to even consider not BF.

It does make me sad that there is this attitude in this country that FF is normal and BF something that lentil-weavers do.

My 4th was born when the others were 5.5; 4 and 2. I had the dashing to school thing- and I am the world's worst=organised person. I don't remember having problems with feeding DC4. I went back to work every afternoon when he was only 5 months old but BF until he gave up at over a year old.

My new baby has the advantage that she is almost a first again, and I have had the hours sat on the settee cluster-feeding because at 16 and 18 my DSs are old enough to sort themselves out (although we haven't lost the school run, sadly). They were a bit freaked out seeing me BF at first, but they got used to it.

I am wondering why she is always ill though, after EBF to 6 months, and never having had formula?

Anyway this is just my experience. Not to sound smug at all, but to say that it is possible to BF a later child, as there were some earlier posters pg with 2nd and 3rd babies worried about it.

We are all at the centre of our own world and what is easy or Ok for one person might feel really stressful and horrible to another. I have just stopped BF DS2 after 4 months and it is a real relief although I loved it too and would like to have BF longer. DS1 (2.5 years) could not take all the attention I had to give his brother and it was dragging us all down. I made the decision to mix feed and then move full time to FF so that we could all enjoy being together and have a bit more fun.

That poor woman, give her a break - Us Mums are just trying to do the very best we can.

This is not a black and white perfect world for everyone.

Cucci - so do find you give your baby less attention now he's not breastfeeding?

Am I the only one who would unlatch a baby if I thought they had had enough and I needed to put them down for a bit?

I'm not talking really newborn but after a few months if they had had about 20-30 minutes of feeding had done the fast sucking and were doing the flutter sucks at the end and really falling asleep then waking up having a few comfort sucks then stopping, I would unlatch and put down. Generally there was no howling as they had had enough milk.

I was lucky DD1 was never a hungry baby and was a speed feeder 10 mins and she was off, DD2 though wanted to use me as a human dummy and with DD1 I just couldn't do it so once I was sure she had had a lot of milk I unlatched her.

No - I did that too. If I needed to stop the baby feeding for whatever reason I did.

I reckon confident breastfeeders probably break loads of 'rules' but still manage to make it work for them.

Sabire, I didn't choose to f'feed because it was easier, or gave me more time to spend with older dd (14 months when dd2 born), I just couldn't get b'feeding to work. I was determined to have more success with dd2, because the first 2 months of dd1's life was a nightmare of, infected nipples, thrush and a tongue tie, so I was trying to b'feed, expressing, and bottle feeding.

Unfortunately I found with dd2 that although my latch was apparantly fine (well according to the MW's, anyway), I still had agonising pain for the whole feed, and for some reason all the time I tried to express as well.I didn't find latching on easy, and had to keep re-latching to try and feed, this wasn't helped by dd1 screaming next to me the whole time I tried to get dd1 latched on, and trying to pull her sisters head off my nipples(ouch!at the memory).

My dh was working long hours from a few days after dd2 was born, and I think if he had been able to be around more whilst establishing b'feeding, it might have been different.

When I moved onto formula, obviously the time spent trying to latch dd2 on was not an issue, so yes feeding was quicker. But, with both my dd's, I have tried to f'feed in as close a way to b'feeding as possible, I don't like someone else to do it, I fed on demand, went skin to skin when possible, had dd2 in bed with us for night feeds. I certainly held dd2 as much as possible, and spent a lot of the time with dd2 in a sling.

My house is a tip pretty much all the time, just slightly more of a tip when dd's came along!

I was a pretty confident breastfeeder having done it for 3 years before ds3 came along Didn't occur to me I wouldn't make it past a few months with him. I assumed I would feed him until he was 2 as I had ds2.

Unfotunately my body didn't help as it just didn't produce enough milk. (And we've already been through why I couldn't take the time to rectify that, I was well aware of how to do it physically.)

I would have thought everyone unlatched a baby who had had enough. There's a difference between a baby who is contently gorged on milk and one who won't settle because he's still hungry and is producing only green poos though. You can unlatch that baby, but they're still hungry and if you were like me you have no milk left.

With ds1 I could express enough for a bottle easily reasonably quickly. With ds3 after 20 mins of expressing I would have less than 1oz.

Can't magic up milk.

Hazyjane - did you see a bf counsellor during the time you were feeding your lo? Serious and persistent pain during feeding and expressing needs proper investigation.

Lol at your little girl. Toddlers can be total sabotage merchants. My second used to lie down on top of me and the baby while we were feeding.

Yurt - must have been sad for you having bf your others for that long and then not being able to feed 3rd baby.

What I was saying about the majority of people giving up breastfeeding - it does seem from reading this thread that the most people here who give up are not experiencing 'normal' breastfeeding - ie it's not breastfeeding per se that's the problem, it's things like supply issues, poor latch, thrush and mastitis that's doing for it. I imagine that mums who post here are more likely to have got expert help to overcome these problems, but I suspect at a population level the majority of people giving up breastfeeding haven't had appropriate support to overcome problems.

I saw a bf counsellor with dd1 and 2, the 1st was from the NCT, she watched me latch on, said it was fine and left without staying for a whole feed. I thought this was normal practice until I came on here a couple of years later! I also went to a b'feeding clinic, where dd was diagnosed with a tongue tie, unfortunately the MW there said that despite my efforts to express, she thought that my supply was dwindling.

With dd2, I saw a bfc from the ABM, she was better, she said she couldn't see anything wrong with my latch, and said that some women just have hugely sensitive nipples, and some babies have very painful latches. I've always considered myself to be pretty determined, and to have quite a high pain threshold, but I'm afraid I just couldn't hack it, and couldn't face the misery I had gone through with number 1 with both of them, and so moved onto formula.

I don't know about sad as such. Had too much going on to dwell on it.

I was irritated that I had to sterilise bottles all the time, and I was concerned because I know that bottlefeeding would slightly increase ds3's already very large risk of autism slightly. I felt a little sad for ds3 although he was quite happy with bottles tbh.

But I didn't really have any choice. It was that, or ds3 was going to be permanently hungry and life's stressful enough without dwelling on stuff you can't change (imo)!

No tiktok,

Im not being judgemental. Thats how i would see my house! I just have a general way of doing things and get irritated by mess

I realise that i probably place too many unrealistic expectations on myself but thats how i am!

Wish i could relax and bit more and not be bothered by mess but i cant. I keep geeting up every minutes putting stuff away etc!

That's ok to be that way, carmen....but you showed you thought that sitting around all day on the sofa in a shit tip was an inevitable part of breastfeeding! Tell me you don't really think that!

No way i dont think that at all! Im just on about the sort of routine i have at home and i get all stressed(weird that i am) if i dont get my 'jobs' done!

eVERY baby is different of course but i am just talking about if i had exclusively bf ds2 then the house and everything would have been even more disorganised than it was with me mixed feeding. I just wanted to get a balance. It would have turned into a sit tip here im sure!

Im not completely house obsessed. I do like sitting around too.