A reason not to BF that I had no answer for, any thoughts?

[bohemianbint]

I recently qualified as a peer counsellor and the training was great. However, I met up with a friend of mine the other day whose daughter is about a month old.

She had BF up until the day before I met her but decided to pack it in and had just started FF. Her reason was that she already has a son who is 11, is very busy and didn't have the time to physically sit all day and BF.

I didn't say anything, as she wasn't asking for advice, she'd made the decision and had already acted on it. But it struck me that I have no idea what to say to someone who sites this as a reason to give up? I remember when DS went through growth spurts just sitting on the sofa literally all day with my boobs out and everything else went to pot, and whilst this didn't bother me I can see how it would be a deal breaker for some people.

So what can you say to that? Obviously FF is inconvenient in the prep time and faff, but does it eliminate that all day sitting around during a growth spurt? Interested to hear what you think...

I looked after a 5 year old and managed with my now 9mo old DD whilst my DH was away Monday to Friday. Getting out to school in the morning was challenging to say the least; it took me till she was 6mo old before I could get all three of us fed, washed and changed before leaving the house in the morning; but we did it. I imagine with an 11 year ol it would be much easier as they can get themselves ready for school.

I imagine she was probably looking for you to say something; maybe even hoping that you would talk her round?

Personally i found it all very draining in the early weeks, and it was difficult at times when DS (who was used to being the centre of attention for five long years) was being particularly demanding, but we got round this by reading or watching a film together when I was Bfing, and it was such a short time out of my life really. Looking back, I'd give anything to be able to sit around on the sofa all day nursing her again.

Ermm you do not have to sit around on the sofa for hours to bf! (tho' I did do that with dd1 )

I bf dd2 when dd1 was just 3.5 and needing a lot more attention than an 11 year old.

Mind you she never fed for more than about 15 mins at a time - partly because I needed to be doing something else.

I fed her in a sling while cooking and trying to entertain dd1. Ok it's not easy, but then neither is messing about with bottlea and sterilisers. It certainly made it easier for me to take dd1 out - to the park etc. No prep, just straight out the door. There are pros and cons, but having another child is certainly not a reason.

you've got to laugh don't you

On the one hand there's not enough support for women who want to BF

And on the other they're being told that because they find it too hard to feed their DC and look after the other children that they're making excuses and they just don't want to BF........

I'm very pro bfing, though that is relatively easy for me just having the 1, but I know another mnetter with 4 children under 6 who has bfed her fourth but the LO struggled to gain weight because the mum was trying to fit bfing in with looking after the other children. Apparently it is quite common for subsequent children to be very laid back and not "ask" for milk as often, sometimes to their detriment.

Amazingly the mnetter in question worked incredibly hard to feed feed feed and now her LO is thriving.

I know that isn't the same as an 11 yo, but it isn't always that easy, and not everyone's babies only feed for 5 or 10 minutes.

It's a difficult question bohemianbint, something that you can probably more readily come up with an answer for if someone was actually asking for advice and wanting to put the effort in. Like you said this woman had already made her decision and it wasn't your place to comment.

When did feeding our babies become something that we 'just don't want to do'? Why was formula made available to the general public in the first place?

Where I live we have a free public health system. That means that I contribute to the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent every year on health problems that would be avoided if mothers used their breasts more. Not just for their children but for the significant expenses associated with maternal health - like cancers - that are significantly reduced by breastfeeding.

Therefore ff mothers are responsible to myself and every other person in this country.

think a few people's halos are slipping/have slipped/need a polish with their attitudes

Therefore ff mothers are responsible to myself and every other person in this country.>>

and everyone who drinks, smokes and eats unhealthily are diverting resources from the health care system..

i have more of an issue with people who drink/smoke heavily using the NHS resources than women who formula fed,especially as many women do not breast feed or do not carry on once it is initiated due to lack of NHS support

It's the exact same reason I couldn't feed ds3 (having spent over 3 years in total feeding ds1 and ds2). DS3 was not an easy feeder. He needed lots of coaxing, lots of waking up, etc etc. My milk supply wasn't great (actually it was crap with him) so that was another issue.

I had 2 other young children including a severely autistic 5 year old son. NOn-verbal, he went a little mad when ds3 was born (as expected). Couldn't get him to bed until midnight (usually he goes between 7 and 8) and inbetween he was doing all the dangerous stuff he usually does (breaks windows, scales fences, stands on stair bannisters 2 storey's up etc etc). It meant I couldn't sit down for an entire feed ever (unless he was at school- when I had ds2 home). Every feed was interrupted. I tried carrying ds3 whilst I chased ds1 but it doesn't really work with a newborn whose a poor feeder anyway. I tried the sling but when I had to lift ds1 down from some hideous height he was squashing ds3 (and I had had my third section).

I mixed fed for a long as possible but without the chance to sit down and retire to bed and just feed I could not up my milk supply sufficiently. And with a severely autistic son in the house there was no chance.

jaynz:

"Therefore ff mothers are responsible to myself and every other person in this country."

Rather simplistic perhaps?

I have a 10 year age gap between my children and am still bfeeding my dd. There have been times when she's had to wait for a feed because ds needs dinner at a sensible hour and there have been times when ds has had to wait for things because dd was feeding.
They are now 11 and 1 and neither of them seem to have been traumatised by the experience.
I agree with sciencebint, your friend probably felt the need to qualify why she'd given up.

Exactly! We are far too self-centred and think far too little about how our choices affect the lives of others. Surely we can, as adults, make the choices that improve the lives of others - particularly for those who cannot make those choices themselves.

Breastfeeding is a right of the child. It's certainly not been easy for me, months of tears every time I fed because of vasospasm. But its not about me. We choose to bring children into this world. Surely that means we are responsible for doing our absolute best by them?

Jaynz, other women's boobs and what they do with them are their business, not yours. Women are not just appliances to service babies.

"Breastfeeding is a right of the child. It's certainly not been easy for me, months of tears every time I fed because of vasospasm. But its not about me. We choose to bring children into this world. Surely that means we are responsible for doing our absolute best by them?"

Yes all our children. Doing my best by ds1 meant ensuring he wasn't falling through a window/scaling a fence/exploding the kettle/standing in a position where he could fall 3 storeys. That clashed with feeding ds3.

I thought that ds3 could survive forumla better than ds1 could survive falling 3 storeys.

I think we are all getting a little indulgent here and way off bohemianbint's track. It's really good to read opinions that differ from our own - even if we don't agree/like them. It widens our world view and teaches us about differences, nothing would ever change if we all were pc and agreed with each other about everything. It's good to challenge others and to be challenged.

I agree with lackaDAISYcal, "I imagine she was probably looking for you to say something; maybe even hoping that you would talk her round?"

Give her lots of attention and talk to her - lots and lots of women give up because of unrecognized postnatal depression. And as a friend who's just finished training then you could be in the best position ever to help.

On a personal note it wouldn't have occurred to me not to breastfeed my younger two because of my other responsibilities.

I've worked part time, and studied as well all through the early months with my children, done voluntary work, walked my dog, done the school run.

I have a 22 month age gap between my second and third.

You manage - you just do. If you think breastfeeding is important to your child you manage.

I'm not poor myself, but I live in a poor, ethnically diverse community. I'm humbled by the women I meet at the children's centre my middle one attends and at my daughter's school. These women have big families, have crap housing, they don't always have much support from their partners who work long hours, most seem not to have access to a car so do all their shopping while dragging a double buggy and a toddler around on foot and you know what - they almost all breastfeed and they never make a big deal about it. They just get on with it.

Maybe it's about expectations , how relaxed you are with your breastfeeding and about how able/willing you are to breastfeed on the go. I do think that western styles of mothering which emphasise control and organisation, scheduled feeds, discrete nursing etc can make those first few weeks with a baby almost impossible if you also have older children and a busy life.

You have to learn to bf on the go and not be precious about your children. Sometimes the baby will have to go hungry for a bit. Sometimes the baby will cry because you need to do something with your older child. Sometimes your older child will have to shift for themselves or be ignored while you feed the baby. It won't do them any harm. You have to get your priorities right - a child who isn't breastfed is disadvantaged in the long term as well as in the medium and short term.

I'm not really going way off bohemianbint's track at all. The reason I didn't bfeed ds3 for very long was because of the physical nature of looking after ds1. It was impossible. Which seems similar to the reason her friend gave. I don't know her friend so know nothing of her situation.

Luckily I had a very pro breastfeeding midwife who was also very aware of the realities of my situation. Andt alked in practical terms about whether it was going to be possible for me to sit and feed ds3 as much as he needed. (We decided not and then looked at ways to extend mixed bfeeding as long as possible)

And no I didn't have PND.

Sabire

oh FGS. And you have experience of parenting a severely autistic child at the same time as a baby do you?

It's pretty presumptious to assume that because someone hasn't managed (despite in my case 3 year of prior breastfeeding experience - I do know how easy it can be when established) that they therefore must have skewed priorities

It all depends on the baby sometimes, my first 2 would be on and off in minutes and had nice 3/4 hours inbetween, no3 baby would feed for 30 mins every 1.5 hours but he slept all night and needed to catch up. I managed to get to 8 months but only because family/hubby/and students were around (nursery nurse ones) If left on my own, I may have ff him earlier as the others were 2 & 3 years old

I never mastered one handed feeding either, if I didn't hold large boob away from nose, they suffocated, so that isn't a suggestion for everyone

If someone is happy in their decision not to breastfeed, even if they are making up excuses (not saying this woman was) then so be it, if they want the help to continue, then support them, it's up to them

If she doesn't want to, she doesn't want to.

There's nothing to discuss, surely?

Wellie, I think bohemian is just giving her friend as an example of the sort of question she might get as a peer supporter, in which case there would be much to discuss.

I think a protracted thread which is simply just one side saying "well I did it while making cakes and knitting dolls for orphans" and the other side saying "it's too hard/I tired and couldn't do it/we shouldn't judge" isn't really the advice bohemian a was looking for.

What she is looking for is advice on how she can advice a mother who comes to her with this as a reason. The answer to which (as a peer supporter myself) is I don't know. If someone comes for peer support for this and if they can and want to put the effort it (older children jumping out of windows notwithstanding) then it can be done but it will be hard. If in this case someone is using it as a reason that they gave up then nothing needs to be said.

For the record my earlier post was to highlight that sometimes fitting bfing around a busy life can be detrimental to the baby, not to say "well my friend had four children and she managed!"