A reason not to BF that I had no answer for, any thoughts?

[bohemianbint]

I recently qualified as a peer counsellor and the training was great. However, I met up with a friend of mine the other day whose daughter is about a month old.

She had BF up until the day before I met her but decided to pack it in and had just started FF. Her reason was that she already has a son who is 11, is very busy and didn't have the time to physically sit all day and BF.

I didn't say anything, as she wasn't asking for advice, she'd made the decision and had already acted on it. But it struck me that I have no idea what to say to someone who sites this as a reason to give up? I remember when DS went through growth spurts just sitting on the sofa literally all day with my boobs out and everything else went to pot, and whilst this didn't bother me I can see how it would be a deal breaker for some people.

So what can you say to that? Obviously FF is inconvenient in the prep time and faff, but does it eliminate that all day sitting around during a growth spurt? Interested to hear what you think...

carmen - I have more on my bare essentials than that also have my weekly chores like Monday is kitchen day, Tuesday lounge/dining room etc tomorrow is upstairs day I really am that anal

Blimey maybe i need to get my act together

I do try and do 'other' jobs as well as my essentials list though. They are just the bare minimum i can accept!

I try and iron on a mONDAY or my first available day off work

Do bedrooms - polish etc Sheets fortnightly, weekly in summer)

Skirting boards/door frames

POlish house clean glass stuff etc etc

Try and do at least one other biggish job a day

"i b'fed my children, and they were x age/whilst moving house etc.. . so anyone who doesn't just isn't trying hard enough', attitude"

Look - I talked about having a busy life and small children close in age and managing to breastfeed. I didn't say or imply that anyone who doesn't manage to breastfeed because of family pressures hasn't tried hard enough.

Maybe I should have spelled it out.

I managed to breastfeed my third baby who fed very, very frequently, while caring for a 22 month old and a 6 year old, a dog that needed walking every day, working part time -and studying - not because I was more resilient or 'trying harder' but because...

• I knew in my heart that the intensity of the early weeks would pass in no time and as soon as it did breastfeeding would be easier than bottlefeeding - I took the long view. I also took the view that the benefits of breastfeeding last a child a lifetime - in that context a few weeks of chaos while you get bf established are worth while aren't they? When I think of the inconveniences and stress I've put up with for other important things in my life - studying for my degree or buying my first home - a few weeks of having to sit around breastfeeding while watching the house turn into a tip don't seem like a huge sacrifice. Some things are worth the investment in terms of time and effort.

• I had help with breastfeeding at the beginning so got off to a good start - makes all the difference

• Because I believe the benefits of breastfeeding would last my baby a lifetime and that squashed any guilt or uncertainty about my 22 month old feeling left out at times

• because I was comfortable enough with bf to do it and hoover/make a cup of tea/cuddle my toddler or read to my 7 year old at the same time - none of which I could do while bottlefeeding

I'm sorry if reading about other people succeeding with breastfeeding despite having lots of challenges upsets those of you who decided you couldn't continue but I think it needs to be said that bf is NOT a fragile mechanism that can only be done in 'ideal' circumstances.

Breastfeeding has special challenges during the first few weeks but, unless you have someone who'll take the baby off you and do the feeds for you, it's no less labour intensive than bottlefeeding once it's established.

Expatinscotland - I read your post and for the life of me couldn't see how bottlefeeding is going to be easier for you if you have to spend loads of time on public transport and sitting in doctor's surgeries with a small child in tow. Surely having your milk ON TAP is easier than having to prepare bottles and lug them about?

"I think what I have a problem with is that some posters give the impression that there is no way they would ever f'feed, because they are so determined that they will always succeed at b'feeding"

Come on - there's not a woman in the country who's stupid enough to think that 'there's no way they'd ever formula feed' because we all know that if breastfeeding fails outright there's no alternative.

And being determined to breastfeed and confident that you're going to succeed is a good thing - as long as it's combined with realistic expectations of what the early weeks of breastfeeding are like, and with a knowledge of where to get help if you need it.

And it's logical to be optimistic as well - the vast majority of women CAN breastfeed, so it's not unrealistic to think that the odds are hugely in your favour.

it's no less labour intensive than bottlefeeding once it's established.

Sorry - no more labour intensive

you know, saber, i don't use public transport. it doesn't exist out here.

i have to drive everywhere.

and excuse me for having antenatal depression and panic attacks.

i'm so glad you're able to see past the first few weeks and you're not suicidal and insomniac and barely able to move for cripping PND.

it's not so for the rest of us.

it'd be so nice for once for people to try to understand that before they come on here and scold mothers for their decisions.

and that's TWO children. one with SN.

like i said, must be nice to be able to stand on such a pedestal and scold people from there.

I am in Argyll, Pot.

I live northwest of Dunoon but came through here by way of Edinburgh, so just settling in the now.

Where are you in Scotland?

There are some services for DD1 in Dunoon, which is very nice, as it's just a 12 mile drive.

But others are in Glasgow at Yorkhill, but well worth the journey.

She has no diagnosis as of yet, but she has had developmental delays, gross and fine motor skills delays first spotted at 8 month check.

Now, as she is approaching 5 years of age, her learning challenges are becoming more apparent.

And she is still not potty-trained.

She's a bonnie lass, though, and she and her sister are the light of our lives!

Good for you. Hope you get the help you need with her. I am in Lanark. Might see you at the next scottish mumsnet meet up - I am def going to try to go next time - I missed the Edinburgh one due to being a dippy pregnant person who had it wrong in the diary and in my memory. I have 2 girls too - and baby due next month will be a surprise!

ah, see, our two girls were a surprise. they don't tell you the gender in Embra.

i'd go through to Glasgow for a meetup for sure!

i've only been to Lanarkshire, to a William Wallace anniversary festival thingme.

i wasn't pregnant and we were riding with a pal so it was a sesh!

For me, I would say, both times, breastfeeding has had 2 phases.

The first phase: very challenging in all sorts of ways, and almost certainly harder than ff in terms of time spent feeding and being the only one who can feed the baby.

The second phase: breastfeeding easily integrated into general life and I imagine more convenient than ff in terms of no bottles to make up, no forward planning when going out.

You can't get to phase 2 without getting through phase 1 though, and I think that's where people struggle to justify bf in the face of all the other demands they're juggling.

Exactly welliemum

Well having spent over 3 years breastfeeding before having ds3 I was very aware that once established breastfeeding ie easy. But I couldn't magic ds1 away long enough for my milk supply to increase. Knowing that it would be easy once the milk was in didn't actually bring the milk in.

I get the idea that most people on here have zero idea what it's like to parent a severely autistic child, or more to the point what it's like to parent my ds1. I have no idea what its like to parent with PND (or a tidy gene come to that). Or an 11 year old. There's no point saying "I managed blah de blah and that's just because I had my priorities sorted etc' when you have no idea how you would have managed whilst juggling disability/PND/11 year olds/someone else's life.

I don't see how knowing that phase 2 is easy (which I was well aware of) could have got me through phase 1. I certainly couldn't ask ds1 to wait 6 weeks whilst I built my milk supply up and got it established for ds3.

If someone says they can't fit breastfeeding in (which is basically what the woman was saying) then unless you're in the position to offer something practical (and in my case there wasn't anything practical that could be done- can't magic away severe autism) then there's not really much you can say. And saying that you managed it with x amount of young children is irrelevant (I think it's easier with a bunch of young children to be honest than with a big gap- you're not having to juggle such diverse needs). That doesn't mean you'd manage it in a situation that was challenging in a different way. (As I said before it was the combination of poor milk supply + severely autistic child that needed supervising that was the problem).

Applause for Welliemum and Yurt, as ever the voices of reason.

There are some depressingly patronising posts on this thread. An adult woman has made an informed choice. Very sad that that's not the end of the matter as far as some are concerned.

There isn't always 2 phases, I had one that fed every 90 mins, for 20 mins minimum up to 8 months (when I stopped) I enjoyed feeding but can understand totally why people can't or don't want to for whatever reason

He got the most bf but is my sickest bizarely (asthma, allergies,ears, throat), the healthiest is the one that got the least bm, never been sick

I still believe breast is best and if I had anymore, I would bf but I would never judge another womans choice

expatinscotland

nobody's scolding you

It's a shame you haven't got anyone to help you.

I was just questioning how bottlefeeding is less labour intensive for someone in your situation than breastfeeding

Maybe I'm missing something about bottlefeeding because I've not done it. My expectations of what's normal in early postnatal life are based on breastfeeding. I cannot get my head around how doing something that involves you spending lots of time at the sink, and that requires you to use both hands instead of just one is 'easier', and how it frees you up to attend to an older child. Unless you've got someone else to do it for you.

I've always assumed that most newborns are fed on demand - whether by breast or bottle, that most take a fair time to feed, and that most want a lot of contact with their mothers. Is none of this true of bottlefed babies? I've always felt that the hardest thing about the first few weeks of having a new baby is that your baby is so reliant on you - wants to be held and cuddled a lot - however you're feeding them.

Is it that bottlefed babies spend less time being held in the early weeks? Is it this that makes bottlefeeding less demanding?

Well yes. My priorities were that ds3 got fed and that ds1 didn't die whilst I was feeding him.

I haven't actually seen a suggestion for how I could have managed that and build up a milk supply. I browsed archives last night and found a post I'd made when ds3 was 2 weeks old asking for advice on how to empty a blocked duct when he was a very gentle feeder - I'd forgotten that- but presumably that added to problems with building up supply (and was presumably why he found bottlefeeding a lot easier).

I suspect bottlefeeding mothers feel like holding their baby just as much as breastfeeding mothers- not quite sure what's to be gained by suggesting they don't

The woman with the 11 year old may be aiming to feed her baby and take her eldest son to somewhere with a bunch of teenage boys and not want to sit in a toilet feeding or get her breasts out in front of a load of sniggery boys. I'm not particularly shy but can't say I'd blame her. Who knows which bit of the combination she's found difficult.

FWIW I breastfed in challenging situations previous. A sick ds2, ds1 who refused to be in the same room who was given an autism diagnosis when ds2 was 2 weeks old (try that for emotional impact), whilst moving house. Perhaps I could have managed it hiking across the Hindu kush with 6 children in tow. Don't know I haven't tried it. But add in the combination of an increase in dangerous behaviour by ds1 and a poor milk supply and I was buggered with ds3.

That's as far as anyone has to analyse. You don't need to start wondering whether bottlefeeders don't mind holding their baby less (in fact ds3 was held more as he wanted to be in a sling the entire time- and no he couldn't feed in the sling).

You also have to understand that bottlefeeding in some circumstances can be much quicker. IN ds3's case it took about 10 mins- 15 mins to get a bottle into him (and then he was popped back in the sling to wind whilst I got on with trailing ds1/emptying dishwashers etc). It took about 40 mins to breastfeed him and he was still hungry at the end of it. That entire 40 mins had to be interrupted by me getting up to check on ds1 - and in ds3's case that meant interrupting breastfeeding as he couldn't breastfeed whilst being carried (ds2 could). He could however bottlefeed and be carried - so I could check on ds1 during the 10 -15 mins it took to bottlefeed.

40 mins a breastfeed with a short gap before needing another feed whilst milk supply was improved (and of course it would have got faster once/if established) would have been fine in some sort of parallel universe where I could actually sit down for 40 mins. But I don't live in that world anymore unfortunately.

I don't think Sabire was implying anything, but I think she was asking about the specifics, as I was lower down, which you have explained in your latest post. Of course it depends on the baby but in general a 'feed' is over more quickly when it's a ff.

Bottlefeeding is quicker (ime) as they get into a routine quicker. Bottlefeed every 2-3 hours to start with, then you can get on with babe in arms or sling. Of course bottlefed babies gets as much cuddles, just less time feeding. And you can pass them to someone else for a feed

I personally prefered breastfeeding, even with the routine but can understand why some don't

So - a bottlefed baby spends just as much time in your arms as a breastfed baby.

But you spend more time at the sink and with both arms occupied.

How is it easier? I still don't understand.

Or maybe it's that I didn't always do feeds sat down on the sofa with my feet up.

Incidentally Yurt - I also have a 'dangerous' toddler so I know how they put you under pressure.

This last year ds2 (aged 2)has broken the Wii (put a 5p piece through the slot), the video, a scanner and a cd player (dropped it down the stairs). He's destroyed about £300 worth of cd's and dvd's. He's been nipped twice by the dog because he teased her (both time drew blood), he's felt-tipped half the walls in the house, fallen off a table (had to call an ambulance), and flooded the bathroom to the point where it shorted the lights in the hallway downstairs. Those are just the things I can remember off the top of my head. He has 4 or 5 tantrums a day. Some of them last for 45 minutes or more. He doesn't nap. He doesn't walk - he runs. Everywhere. All the time.

He's not done all the sabotage while I was bf because I'm not breastfeeding anymore. He's done it while I was online , tidying up, or on the phone to my mum.

I went to the drop in at our local children's centre and talked to the staff there about the fact that he won't do any activity for more than 5 minutes - unless it involves plugs, taps, toothpaste or electrical equipment. They observed him playing (he ignored a roomful of toys as made straight for the sink to turn the taps on, then the cd player to try to unplug it, then the door to try to get out). The woman then told me she was going to make me an appointment with the safety officer who'd come to my house and check it for toddler dangers from top to bottom because 'that child is an accident waiting to happen'. She said he would go through all the things I needed to do to properly childproof my house.

In the end the visit didn't happen, but I did go to B&Q and buy some hooks and eyes, which I've put on most of the doors in the house so ds simply can't enter any rooms apart from the one I'm in or the playroom/sitting room. I've yet to deal with the plug issues but I'm getting there. We've brought some lockable cabinets for tools and a stairgate to separate him from the dog. All these things have made a difference to my ability to relax at home with him.

in general a 'feed' is over more quickly when it's a ff.

Doesn't it depend on the individual baby - just like with breastfeeding?

I know some mums who bottlefeed who say their baby is really slow to feed.

I can't really comment because I only have one child and therefore do not have any direct experience. I do however know of friends who have given up bf because they found it difficult to continue with when they had more children to look after with.

Perhaps they were looking for an excuse to give up, perhaps they didn't try hard enough, perhaps they were badly organised, perhaps their older children were demanding, perhaps they were exhausted, perhaps they had PND, perhaps they just didn't want to continue. There are a variety of reasons.

It is important to discuss the reasons for giving up and it is important that bohemianbint is looking to explore possible solutions to offer to mothers in similar situations (you sound lovely btw!). However I do find the posters that have said that have said it is a "crap" reason and have the attitude that because they managed it then you must be lazy if you can't to be extremly patrionising and unhelpful. It reminds me of a woman at work who disciplined an employee for having time off sick with endometriosis because she had never suffered period pain in her life therefore to her it didn't exist.