A reason not to BF that I had no answer for, any thoughts?

[bohemianbint]

I recently qualified as a peer counsellor and the training was great. However, I met up with a friend of mine the other day whose daughter is about a month old.

She had BF up until the day before I met her but decided to pack it in and had just started FF. Her reason was that she already has a son who is 11, is very busy and didn't have the time to physically sit all day and BF.

I didn't say anything, as she wasn't asking for advice, she'd made the decision and had already acted on it. But it struck me that I have no idea what to say to someone who sites this as a reason to give up? I remember when DS went through growth spurts just sitting on the sofa literally all day with my boobs out and everything else went to pot, and whilst this didn't bother me I can see how it would be a deal breaker for some people.

So what can you say to that? Obviously FF is inconvenient in the prep time and faff, but does it eliminate that all day sitting around during a growth spurt? Interested to hear what you think...

bohemianbint: "But in the real world there just isn't the knowledge being passed on re how to BF and there doesn't seem to be any opportunity to get this across to women apart from the 9 month window when they are in the system prior to giving birth. In the old days before formula this kind of knowledge was passed on through the women in the family and it was simply how babies were fed. Obviously this is now long gone and I don't know what would help - educating girls while still at school as part of PSE, perhaps?"

I agree that the best way to promote bf-ing is to get them at school or just get them early really. But if it is integrated into schooling, I just feel it is going to be perceived as an extension of the current 'preachy' 9-month campaign.

I feel the best way for bf-ing to gain acceptablity is for girls to have bf-ing role models. If they see their mothers or aunts or cousins bf-ing in public, especially from a young age, then it would be a great foundation to build on. My dd 4.6 sees pictures of her being bf-ed by me. She sees ds being bf-ed by me. She takes her dolly and puts it to her chest and says she is 'feeding' her.

That is the message - that bf-ing is natural, it is normal, it is an expression of intimacy, and it fits into your life as seemlessly as breathing. We don't even need to go into advantages or disadvantages of bf-ing v ff-ing.

It is not easy to approach people at a later stage of they are having their first (or subsequent) baby, when they have already assimilated the media messages on the sexuality of breasts and the pervasiveness of ff. As a bf-ing counsellor, you are to an extent on the back foot and have to second guess where they are coming from to give them the message without seeming to ride rough shod over their cultural sensitivities or insult their intelligence to make decisions on feeding.

yurt1, that is not to say that women will find bf-ing easy and necessarily succeed, as your circumstances show. My post was just to establish the baseline of bf-ing as normal, get women to just try (as you did) and then deal with issues as they arise. And it could very well be that formula or mixed feeding is the answer. Women then ideally have bf-ing counsellors like bohemianbint to guide them as opposed to trying to convert them.

"It's not always as simple as trying harder or not wanting to"

No - but if if bf were acknowledged to be important for babies, rather than just a lifestyle choice for parents there might be political pressure to provide more practical help and knowledgeable support for new mothers struggling with difficult personal circumstances and problematic breastfeeding.

Unfortunately the answer to difficult breastfeeding always seems to be 'just use formula instead'. I'm not talking about individual mums - more that this seems the response the entire health and social care system seems to be geared towards.

In the past when it was a case of breastfeed or your child would probably die, women were expected, if humanely possible, to stay at home resting after birth for six weeks, while other women from their families or within their communities took over their jobs within the home, including care of other children. By six weeks breastfeeding is usually established and women would be largely recovered from the birth. They'd then be 'churched' - ie go through a religious ceremony giving blessing for a safe birth and 'cleansing' the mother so she could take up her normal roles within the family and her community.

Bring back bed rest and churching I say!

I think you did a great job not saying anything to her about her choice. As you said, she had obviously made the decision and acted on it. You did the right thing.

I realise you are asking about how you might deal with people asking you for advice about stopping etc. My view is that you need to tell the mum that she needs to do what will make her happiest - there are so many people out there telling you that breast is best, and implying that your baby will be damaged by not being bfed. The pressure is hideous on people who want to do it, but it is just not working out for for one reason or another.

And I do think juggling more than one child and breastfeeding is very hard, so a valid reason. Yes, breast is best, everyone knows that. But a happy mummy and household for the children is much more important that breastfeeding could ever be.

"Unfortunately the answer to difficult breastfeeding always seems to be 'just use formula instead'."

Yes, we got this from a HCP who was paid to support breastfeeding within a breastfeeding support setting, to mother actively asking for breastfeeding support and all they got was 'Move to Formula'.
When I complained, I was told that I didn't understand and that she was truly supporting women, whereas I made them fill guilty (by being positive about breastfeeding)

fill feel guilty

"My view is that you need to tell the mum that she needs to do what will make her happiest"

But it's not just about the mother is it? Midwives have to juggle their responsibility to the baby as well as to the mother. What if you suspect the mother is not making a fully informed choice - that she's not completely aware of the possible implications for her baby of discontinuing breastfeeding?

And what if the mother has told you that ideally she would have liked to have breastfed for a lot longer but that she's struggling with specific difficulties? At what point do you say 'it's not worth trying anything else to make breastfeeding easier and better for you'? Most 'technical' breastfeeding problems can be overcome with the right sort of help, or they pass as the baby matures and gets better at breastfeeding. Sometimes it may take quite a bit of work on the part of the mother and breastfeeding counsellor, but usually problems CAN be overcome. Isn't the hard thing deciding WHEN to cut your losses and simply stop? Won't it vary wildly for different people?

"- there are so many people out there telling you that breast is best, and implying that your baby will be damaged by not being bfed."

Yes - and there are so many women out there who've stopped breastfeeding before they wanted to - because of problems that were probably solvable - who are grieving, angry and disappointed for what they and their babies have missed. If I was a midwife or breastfeeding counsellor I'd be conscious of this - that sometimes the advice to stop breastfeeding, while it might bring short term relief from the problems the woman is struggling with, might also have long term emotional repercussions for her.

There are dozens and dozens of mums on this board who have been told to stop breastfeeding when they were going through hard times with it. (It happened to me with my first. I remember being told when my first was six weeks that 'the most important thing is that you're happy' and not to feel guilty about stopping breastfeeding)

Some of these mums would have stopped. Others - not necessarily those with the fewest or least complex breastfeeding problems - continue and go on to have hugely rewarding experiences of breastfeeding. That was the case for me.

Obviously it's different if a woman says 'I want to stop breastfeeding' and is clear about why she is doing it then all she needs is advice on how to stop without giving herself mastitis, and how to get her baby settled on bottles.

The problem is that most people seeking help from bf counsellors and midwives aren't completely resigned to stopping - they're torn. They'd like to continue, but they feel they'll have to stop because of the problems they're experiencing.

Sabire. I am one of those women who bf did not work out for, even though I desperately wanted it to. and yes, I grieved for a long time first time round. However, second time, I managed to do it for longer but made the decision by myself to stop - I was lucky to have taken strength from the first experience to know that I had to make the decision myself based on what I wanted and what was best for me and therefore the baby.

What is really important is what will make the mum happiest. And yes, it is about the baby, it is all about the baby. A stressed/harrassed/burnt out/sad/depressed mum is no good at all for the baby. And IME that is where people can end up if they are preached to.

I agree that there is not enough support to help people overcome the problems faced, but there does come a time where dishing out guilt (one way or the other - I had it from both sides - that baby is starving...blah blah) is WRONG. Mums needs support to do what is right for their family.

And whether people like it or not, breastfeeding is not the be all and end all of parenting. We live in an era where formula feeding is a perfectly good alternative. There is a list as long as your arm of more important things in parenting, and I think alot of people are judged for realising that.

'What is really important is what will make the mum happiest. And yes, it is about the baby, it is all about the baby. A stressed/harrassed/burnt out/sad/depressed mum is no good at all for the baby. And IME that is where people can end up if they are preached to.' Absolutely, as someone who worked with mums fitting this criteria (ex homestart employee on a surestart contract) I agree totally. BF is but one of a variety of ways you can do the best for your child. The most inportant is to be stable and give them love and attention.

And yes I did BF- fro avried amunts of time- 4 weeks with ds1 (whose weight dropped to 4lb 9oz); 4 months with ds2; 16 months with ds3.

And I think yurts points are also impiortant- if you read disabled child as 'family that doesn't meet sterotypical images of the family' (and mine's the same- 2 disabled, albeit less than Yurts DS, Dh that works nights so can't help with changes then, family all living far away)- then you have to acknowledge that there are so many variables that affect the chances of BF, and there is no right or wrong, only ideal- and how ideal are any of us?

I'm wondering how I will cope when DC5 turns up (was due yesterday). I have DS1 (5) DD1 (3) and DTS (15mths). At the moment I'm just about keeping my head level getting everyone ready and at the school on time more or less alone. (my mum has recently moved down but works full time so in reality is just another person for me to cook etc for). DH works in London Mon-Fri and I live in Devon.

If my other DCs were much older it would make life much simpler. I used to love being able to take dd1 out without all the faff not to mention weight of bottles, powder etc.

I really want to BF the new arrival so trying to keep positive thoughts but I do know it won't be the easiest of choices. I gave up on the DTS when they were 6wks and DT1s reflux meant I was chained to the sofa all day while she fed and puked non stop, it took me months to get over the guilt of stopping and I still feel sad now when I think about it but at the time giving formula was the only way I could get away from her long enough to see to the others.

Wish me luck with this one...

"And whether people like it or not, breastfeeding is not the be all and end all of parenting."

The implication of this statement being.... that people who have strong feelings about the importance of breastfeeding to mothers and babies DO see it as the 'be all and end all of parenting'?

Isn't that a rather roundabout way of saying they're unreasonable, unthinking fanatics who have no true understanding of the relationships between parents and children?

Don't you think that even people who have strong feelings about the importance of breastfeeding are sensible and compassionate enough to see it as part of a bigger picture when it comes to parenting?

"We live in an era where formula feeding is a perfectly good alternative."

You are entitled to this opinion - it's a very common one.

I personally do not see formula as a 'perfectly good alternative' and would only want to use it if I absolutely couldn't breastfeed. Am I not equally entitled to hold this opinion?

There are risks and health disadvantages to formula feeding - how much weight you attach to these will depend on your particular comfort zones around risk taking behaviours with your children and your feelings about health research. Some people don't attach much weight to the science - again - that's their prerogative, they shouldn't be judged.

Other mums do attach weight to the medical evidence - and again, they shouldn't be labelled or judged as fanatical or extremist for taking this position.

I personally think that when it comes to being unfairly judged and criticised, people who have strong feelings about the importance of breastfeeding are far more sinned against than sinning.

Rubbish excuse if you ask me! Sorry. I bfed both mine. DS1 for a year and DS2 for 18 months. Ds1 was under 2 when DS2 came along so he was at home with me all the time and at that age still very dependant. Is someone with an 11 year old child presumably out of nappies capable of feeding self and at school lots of the time more busy than somone with a 21 month old?

people tend to make excuses cause lots of women are out there with their judgy pants on ready to judge the decision that they have made for their family. child and situation.

No it is not possible for every woman to breastfeed. My mother cannot physiologically breastfeed due to her breasts - can happen.

I was unable to do it with dd1 - nearly packed it in with dd2, have packed it in with dd3 ( at 11 months) but both dd2 and 3 were mixed fed at certain times BECAUSE like yurt I have a child with sn and it makes the whole dynamic and situation totally different. It does not make it possible - they will not sit and watch tv, let you read to them etc. Things have to be done.

You wanted to breastfeed and did whilst doing other amazing things - good on you.

bohemianbint I think each to their own and as a friend it is my job to support them in their decision not to judge - excuses or not - but to perhaps gently ask if it is going okay for her and leave it at that.

Unless I live their life and situation - who am I to know whether what they are doing is right or wrong.

TBH - some of the sentiments on here would have tipped me over the edge when I struggled for over 2 months to get feeding sorted with dd2 - thankfully my gorgeous SIL provided me with support along with dh ( goes without saying) that I was able to crack it and go on to feed until medication meant I had to stop when dd2 was about 18 months old. I would have lost the plot if my SIL had said it would work if I wanted it too or whatever.

Marge - wait until YOU have an 11-year old.
The words 'unpaid taxi service' are never far from your lips

I have an eight yr old and i would never have gotten out of the house in the morning if i had exclusively bf. Well, i would have maybe, but it would have been pandemonium(which i hate) so i mixed fed which suited me.

I do agree though it is kind of a rubbish argument not feed, cos if you really want to get around it you can. If you dont mind spending every spare moment in the first few wks doing nothing much apart from sitting on the settee and letting your other kids(if you have them) entertain themselves. I still spent loads of time sitting around actually, even with mixed feeding whilst ds1 was at school, compared to how easy it is now ds2 is 6mths old. It would have been ten times worse if id just bf though.

I do agree though, that most women can bf. A lot just dont want to sacrifice the rest of what bit of life the have got i suppose(like me!).

I could not ever, sit there all day when i know i have physically got jobs to do. My dp only had a few days hol and then it was business at usual in our house. Im not one of those people who can let the house turn into a pigsty, but its great if that sort of stuff doesnt bother you!

Also, i hardly did much with ds1 in the early days and that was mixed feeding, id have done bugger all if id just bf!(Repeated myself a bit there!)

I have not read whole thread properly but wondered if anyone had mentioned that it is a GOOD thing for the 11 year old to witness the mother putting the baby first sometimes?

the baby should not (IMO) always be being dragged along to whatever the 11 year old is doing - this could be a useful lesson to the older child that when people are needy we cheerfully put them first and wait for our own needs to be satisfied later on (WE can wait, a baby can't). I understand the reality of the mother's life might be that she simply can't find time for all the things she needs to do, but it sounds like she may be loath to put the 11 y o out, by putting the baby's needs first at times. I think this would be a mistake.

You know what I find depressing when I read these posts? It's that the underpinning assumption seems to be that you're 'lucky' if you manage to breastfeed and that there are lots and lots of reasons why women have to stop breastfeeding and switch to formula.

I think this is just plain wrong-headed. FACT: most women can breastfeed (around 98%) given the right support and encouragement. FACT: 90% of women who give up breastfeeding say they would have liked to have continued.

Why is our first response to this issue to keep reiterating that breastfeeding doesn't matter (because the effect of the 'happy mummy/happy baby comments - they trivialise the value of breastfeeding), that it's not important?

As far as I can see, women who are well supported and who overcome breastfeeding difficulties and go on to have a positive experience of breastfeeding usually place a high emotional value on that aspect of their mothering experience.

Yes if someone is ready to stop breastfeeding - fine.

But if they're stopping earlier than they wanted to because they're experiencing pain/supply problems etc and they're not getting expert help to overcome these

or because they haven't got family/outside support to enable them to get breastfeeding established (because it's only in the first few weeks that breastfeeding is generally more time-consuming than ff - even bottlefed babies have to be held while they're fed - and of course with a bottlefed baby you don't even have a spare hand to hold a book or cuddle another child) - well, not fine. It's crud.

Breastfeeding is important to babies and it's not good enough that as a society we're so complacent about all the barriers that are put in the way mothers trying to give them the safest and most appropriate diet at this most vulnerable time in a baby's life.

And I know it annoys people to keep reading this, but I keep saying it because as far as I can see the members of the happy mummy/happy baby 'brigade' (apologies for using that word - I don't mean to be belligerant I just can't think of another right now) simply never acknowledge it: some babies are seriously damaged by not being breastfed - this is what the literature tells us. When I hear someone say 'happy mummy/happy baby' I think about the research which suggests that up to a third of new cases of type 1 diabetes might be avoided by breastfeeding, and I think of the thousands of children nationally who are admitted to hospital with gastroenteritis and respitory infections who wouldn't have got these things had they been breastfed.

OK - we're not talking about the majority of children, or even a large minority of children who really suffer from not being breastfed - but even so - we're still talking about thousands of children nationally experiencing illnesses that they wouldn't have had, if they'd been breastfed. I can't get that thought out my head. We're not talking about hypothetical children - we're talking about real children with real illnesses.

That doesn't mean that all women MUST breastfeed, but surely - if we take children's health seriously, and we value the role of breastfeeding in protecting them, then we shouldn't be so damn complacent about the hundreds of thousands of women unnecessarily giving up breastfeeding before they intended to.

I really don't agree with F&Z's idea that you teach an 11 year old that their needs have to come second to a baby. You have to balance everyone's needs. Why should an 11 year old suddenly miss football practice/drama class etc just because he has a new baby sibling?

Subsequent children do have to fit into an established family and if you suddenly start putting their needs above your other children you're potentially asking for problems imo. 11 year olds are still children. You have to juggle. Baby's needs don't automatically come first.

"because they haven't got family/outside support to enable them to get breastfeeding established (because it's only in the first few weeks that breastfeeding is generally more time-consuming than ff - even bottlefed babies have to be held while they're fed - and of course with a bottlefed baby you don't even have a spare hand to hold a book or cuddle another child) - well, not fine. It's crud. "

It's not even about family/outside support though. If you have (as many people do- I know lots) a non-verbal older child/child with LD's who is confused by the arrival of a baby and you've been off in hospital for days (and they haven't seen you in that time but don't have the understanding to know where you are) then they need their Mum. They need their Mum, new baby needs their Mum. Somehow a compromise has to be reached.

Just an example of a specific set of circumstances that arises because life isn't always simple and often involves juggling. Others will have their own set of individual complicaitons.

Sabire, the majority of children who are not breastfed and the majority of women who do not breastfeed are missing out on an experience and a relationship which is important to physical health and emotional well-being, and we should, as you imply, have the courage and the honesty to say that...and not talk about a 'minority' , 'cos it is more than that.

This does not mean that breastfeeding is always a great experience, or that it always works out easily and well, and that it should always start, or continue, at all costs. Sometimes it's a terrible experience, and one which can't be fixed in time to become a good one...and when that happens, we should, again as you say, recognise that it matters, and that mothers have the right to be disappointed and regretful about it (not guilty, though, please!!).

It also does not mean that the lack of breastfeeding cannot be compensated for in some way - a loving, formula feeding relationship is perfectly possible and any increased incidence illness (which will not happen to all, anyway) is not likely to be life-threatening or long-lasting to most because it will be treated promptly and effectively.

It does mean we should be honest enough to avoid glib generalities about 'happy mummy = happy baby'. A mum might be relieved and delighted to stop breastfeeding, but what if her baby has more earache as a result? The fact she's 'happy' will make no difference to that! A society which valued breastfeeding would enable as many mothers as possible to breastfeed and be happy, and to support with non-judgemental acceptance the ones who end up not doing it, whatever their reasons, allowing the ones who are regretful the space to express their sadness.

I do agree with an older child waiting sometimes. I always tell my ds1 that very thing, but i also agree with yurt that you cant suddenly put an older child 'out' by missing footy or whatever.

My ds1 goes to footy each week and we wouldnt have abandoned it cos we had a baby.

I did also have support with new baby and whatever choice feeding i decided, but i still would have found bf too much, but thats because i admit to placing a lot of importance on other things in my life- sorting house out etc etc. I tried to get a balance by mixed feeding, but my dp would have happily helped if i had wanted to sit on the sofa all day. i didnt.

Yurt - other than during the short period when you are establishing breastfeeding and when your baby feeds very frequently (a few weeks for most people) how does bottlefeeding your baby make you more available for your older child - unless you've got someone else around to do the feeds (which admittedly is true for some people)? Bottlefed babies need to be held and fed too.

"any increased incidence illness (which will not happen to all, anyway) is not likely to be life-threatening or long-lasting to most because it will be treated promptly and effectively"

Yes - I agree. We have antibiotics and easily available rehydration therapy so if babies get sick from not being breastfed we can make them better. Depressing that we're so complacent about the fact that without these treatments the mortality and serious morbidity statistics for bottlefed babies would be noticably higher than that of breastfed babies - even in developed countries.

"A mum might be relieved and delighted to stop breastfeeding, but what if her baby has more earache as a result? The fact she's 'happy' will make no difference to that!"

Exactly so. My understanding is that breastfeeding improves the health of ALL babies. One might not be able to quantify its impact, but one can rest assured that breastfed, our babies will be ill less often and less seriously than had we formula fed them - whether they get ill frequently, or extremely rarely. My biggest problem with the 'happy mummy/happy baby' truism is that it completely fails to take into account how we feel when our babies are unwell - basically because it rests on the assumption that if our babies do become unwell it's not got anything to do with them not being breastfed, when in fact this is something we can never be assured about either way - it's simply unknowable.

"A society which valued breastfeeding would enable as many mothers as possible to breastfeed and be happy, and to support with non-judgemental acceptance the ones who end up not doing it, whatever their reasons"

I so agree with this, but I also have to add that as someone who really values breastfeeding, it would be so much easier to be non-judgemental and accepting of women's decision not to breastfeed if it wasn't happening on such a flipping grand scale! It's the sheer numbers that I find unnerving. Yes - at an individual level I can respect a mothers decision not to breastfeed because in my heart I KNOW that all mothers do their best for their beloved babies, based on what they know and what they feel able to do. But at a population level I can't accept it's right that the majority of women choose not to breastfeed for more than a few weeks. It's this macro/micro thing that addles my brain!

BTW Tiktok - I would really value your opinion of this research, which was out a few years ago. I found it very interesting.

It was the study done by the Telethon Institute in Australia into breastfeeding and mental health in children.

Was it something that you would class as good quality research?

Basic summary:

"Our research has shown that babies that are breastfed for longer than six months have significantly better mental health in childhood, adding to the growing evidence that bioactive factors in breast milk played an important role in the rapid early brain development that occurs in the first year of life. The study found that children who were breastfed for less than six months compared with six months or longer had a 52 per cent increased risk of a mental health problem at two years of age, and a 55 per cent increased risk at age six. At age eight the increased risk was 61 per cent while at age 10 the increased risk was 37 per cent. The analysis is based on a scientifically-recognised checklist of child behaviour that assessed the study children?s behaviour at two, six, eight and 10 years of age. Children that were breastfed had particularly lower rates of delinquent, aggressive and anti-social behaviour, and overall were less depressed, anxious or withdrawn. With adjustments for factors such as the parents? socio-economic situation, their education, their happiness and family functioning, children that were breastfed for at least six months were still at lower risk of mental health problems.

Well it depends on the circumstances (which is my point entirely). I mentioned before that the mother may not be comfortable feeding in front of an 11 year old. Fio suggested she might not want to bfeed in front of a football team. Presumably she would be happy sat next to an 11 year old bottlefeeding. If she had to disappear to her room each time then it would make her unavailable. I've fed everywhere but I would probably be more embarrassed feeding next t closely related pubescent boys and friends than in most other circumstances.

In my case bottlefeeding allowed others to give ds3 milk (in fact I bfed ds3 in some form or another for 2 or 3 months anyway -until my milk supply died on me. It allowed me to be able to take ds1 out (very important).

My problem anyway was not with continued breastfeeding it was that it was impossible for me to establish it because I was not available to do that. At the time ds1 didn't understand the language structure "First x then y" - so telling him to wait wasn't an option.

Sabire, i think your reading a bit too much into the statement that b'feeding isn't the be all and end all of parenting. I do think that the implication of some of the posts on this thread is that if you wanted to b'feed, failed to b'feed, and moved onto formula for what, to the mother are insurmountable problems ( and then have to live with the sadness that that decision can sometimes bring ), she is just 'making excuses' when she states those reasons, and that mothers that fail to b'feed are just being selfish and putting themselves before the welfare of their children - that, I think is pretty insulting.

I do have strong feelings about b'feeding, was desperate to b'feed my own children, and am full of admiration for those who succeed in b'feeding their children. However some of the, 'well i b'fed my children, and they were x age/whilst moving house etc.. . so anyone who doesn't just isn't trying hard enough', attitude displayed on this thread is the reason why I didn't ask for advice on MN when I was having problems establishing b'feeding with my dd 2 years ago. I now know, having recently started posting on MN, that the majority of posts are very supportive, and the advice provided is invaluable, I just wish i had been able to see past the judgey, smugness of some of the posters when I was a train-wreck of a new mum.