A reason not to BF that I had no answer for, any thoughts?

[bohemianbint]

I recently qualified as a peer counsellor and the training was great. However, I met up with a friend of mine the other day whose daughter is about a month old.

She had BF up until the day before I met her but decided to pack it in and had just started FF. Her reason was that she already has a son who is 11, is very busy and didn't have the time to physically sit all day and BF.

I didn't say anything, as she wasn't asking for advice, she'd made the decision and had already acted on it. But it struck me that I have no idea what to say to someone who sites this as a reason to give up? I remember when DS went through growth spurts just sitting on the sofa literally all day with my boobs out and everything else went to pot, and whilst this didn't bother me I can see how it would be a deal breaker for some people.

So what can you say to that? Obviously FF is inconvenient in the prep time and faff, but does it eliminate that all day sitting around during a growth spurt? Interested to hear what you think...

DD doesn't let me talk on the phone while bfing !

I haven't read the whole thing and apologise if it's already been explained, but would someone mind explaining to me why if you chose to ff for this reason, it would save time? I mean yes, there can be a lot of time involved in bfing, but surely you would still have to sit there feeding the baby, bottle or breast?

Or does formula fill them up more or something?

Sorry Yurt I just read down the thread a bit. That makes a bit more sense.

yurt, not true about breastfeeding counsellors and mixed feeding, We get many calls about it. We can't talk brands or types of bottle (and the info is not out there to allow us to make an evidence-based suggestion, anyway) but if someone wants to ask us about mixed feeding, we tell them, in an open and non-judgemental way,

• the possible impact on their choice to breastfeed of any formula
• the best health outcomes are seen in babies who are exclusively breastfed for 6 mths
• if they do use it/have used it, that there are ways back to full breastfeeding if they want to know about them
• the best ways of minimising the impact on breastfeeding
• alternatives to formula and to bottles, if they are appropriate (for instance, expressed breastmilk, a cup)
• if she wants to discuss fixing the breastfeeding to avoid mixed feeding, then of course we can talk about that, too

The mum should be able to explore her feelings about all this - aptly enough, many women have mixed feelings about mixed feeding - and she should feel supported whatever her decision.

Doesn't a lot of it come down to individual expectations of what's 'normal' and acceptable and weighing up risks and benefits?

I'd be asking this mum (after establishing that - all things being equal she'd like to continue bf if she could find a way of making it work for her) - what are the 'flashpoints' in your day? When do you really feel the pressures of breastfeeding? Is it in the morning when you need to do the school run? After school? How might things be different in 3 weeks/3 months when your baby's feeding patterns will have changed? Are there any practical changes you could make ie - use a sling, get someone to help ou with the school run, get your 11 year old to make their own breakfast?

I'm not a bf counsellor or a peer supporter but one thing that goes through my mind thinking about this sort of situation is the impossibility of factoring in to the discussion the possible impact of the switch to formula on the baby, because you simply can't anticipate it. I'm thinking now of a mum of a boy in my daughter's class. She stopped bf at 3 weeks because she was struggling with getting up and getting her older child to school. Months down the line and the baby has repeated ear infections which have made my friend's life much more difficult and certainly impacted on other members of the family - this baby has been really miserable. He's also a very hungry baby and she's struggled with this. Both she, her husband and her son are obese and the HV has worried her about the amount of formula she's giving so she's very preoccupied with that. She's had so many more problems related to the bottlefeeding that I suspect weren't anticipated and discussed. If she'd carried on breastfeeding I'm convinced her life would have been easier now.

I can think of so many other families that I know where minor but ongoing health problems (mainly respitory illness and atopic disease) impacts on family life. It seems to me that the increased rates of illness that come come with stopping breastfeeding are never factored in to discussions on weighing up the pros and cons of continuing. Understandible in some ways because the health impact of not breastfeeding is impossible to quantify or anticipate - but ill health caused by ff does impact on family life.... I know it does and I think it needs to be acknowledged.

tiktok - the trouble with this:

• the possible impact on their choice to breastfeed of any formula
• the best health outcomes are seen in babies who are exclusively breastfed for 6 mths

is that it's not actually advising about mixed feeding. It's telling you how bad it is. And ime (I did say ime) that was the bit that was focussed on. Which was irrelevant. I knew that exclusive breatfeeding was the best.

Someone who could have advised me on this:

• the best ways of minimising the impact on breastfeeding

in relation to the clash breastfeeding ds3 made with keeping ds1 safe would have been helpful. But unfortunately that sort of advise isn't generally available (and anyway tends to come under the heading of 'no answer - an problem with no solution')

Sabire- but those are general population stats - and don;t necessarily translate to individual families. My 2 boys with eczema and repeated ear infections are ds1 and ds3. One breastfed for 13 months, one breastfed for only a short time.

It's never as simple as breastfeed and your child won't get X.

sorry but i have to add- i have dts's 1&2 aged 4.5 dd aged 18mo and dtd's aged 3 mo all have been bf- dtd's are exclusivly bf AND i work full time- my own business so they co me to work with me but still- it is possible in any circumstances!

but it is a personal choice and i respect that, i just wish people didn't feel the need to make excuses or give reasons!

"it is possible in any circumstances!"

No it's not.

yurt, I gave you a general outline of what a normal call would include. If a mother knows about the health impact of formula, then it wouldn't be discussed, and it would not be a good call if the tone was 'how bad mixed feeding is'. I can tell you, that many, many callers do not understand about the impact on their choice to breastfeed of using any formula - evidence for this throughout mumsnet, too! We also let mothers know that using formula does not 'destroy' the health impact of breastfeeding, too....another myth.

If you were not given the chance to explore the best ways of minimising the impact, then I think you were let down by the counsellor. I agree some healthcare professionals would not have a clue.

"but those are general population stats - and don;t necessarily translate to individual families..... It's never as simple as breastfeed and your child won't get X."

No - of course not. That's true for every health issue. There is almost never a cause and effect relationship that the individual can identify and quantify. Does that mean these things shouldn't be SERIOUSLY considered when we're making a decision about stopping feeding?

Oh I don't know yurt- it's been years since I worked now but I used to help at the BF support groups (have had training but not to the level of counsellor) and as mixed feeding was the way I went with ds2 and to an extent ds3 I could have given you a few tips I am sure .

at Fio for having a dishwasher, there's nowhere here to plumb one in.

We used to have one in the old house (was part of the rental deal) and would have one here but although our kithcen is big it's v v porrly planned and I think the owners would be rather annoyed if we re-plumbed it all, so sadly tis a no-no. Even the tumble dryer has to have the back door open due to alck of vent though we might get a condenser soon.

One of the many downsides of private rentals.... if dad wants a vent in his council house, he puts one in. Am of that.

DS was 16mths when DD was born and he coped with me feeding her. BF doesn't mean that you have to be attached to the baby 24/7 anyway. No.3 is due in 3 weeks and I will be BF with a 3yo and 21mo around too. I probably overuse CBEEBIES but something's gotta give! I'm sure this wouldn't be the case for an 11yo though!!

However, I don't agree that BF is always best- if it is making the mum unhappy/too difficult/painful whatever then it could affect her bonding. If, psychologically, FF makes her happier then the whole family will benefit. I don't think people should have to justify FF but I do think they should give it a chance. New mothers have enough to deal with without being judged for FF. I know I hate being judged for BF in public and that's my choice.

really really interesting reading all the feedback, thank you everyone.

I just want to clarify that I didn't offer any advice to my friend in this circumstance - had she asked, I would have done. The purpose of this thread was to find out how to deal with someone coming to me in the course of my counselling work and saying that they don't have time to BF.

I think it's quite hard, sadly, to be able to talk about BF without sounding preachy and it's something I want to work hard at avoiding, hence the not offering unsolicited advice. I have made friends aware that I can help if they want me to, but I haven't pushed it, as I feel that people make up their own minds on these things. It's just that sadly, in a lot of cases they make up their minds without being aware of the facts (and I reiterate, because I don't want to sound patronising here - I didn't know the first thing about BF myself when I had my first child, I was just bloody minded!) and herein lies the problem.

Obviously here on Mumsnet people are generally very clued up. But in the real world there just isn't the knowledge being passed on re how to BF and there doesn't seem to be any opportunity to get this across to women apart from the 9 month window when they are in the system prior to giving birth. In the old days before formula this kind of knowledge was passed on through the women in the family and it was simply how babies were fed. Obviously this is now long gone and I don't know what would help - educating girls while still at school as part of PSE, perhaps?

With regard to my friend, briefly, I think she was finding the FF a bit of a faff, esp as when she FF DS1 it was ok to make up bottles in advance. She's been advised not to but was saying she was going to still do it anyway. I think if people have had kids, even if it was a long time ago, they always think what they did last time didn't kill anyone and it's very difficult to argue with logic like that. Assuming it was my place to argue.

haven't read whole thread but wanted to add my tuppence worth.

ds was 2.5 when dd born. i felt i was sitting for long times to feed her. and i was. however, i became aware that this was the only time i was devoting to just her - the rest of the time i was looking after and entertaining ds and dd just had to fit in with what was going on.

I don't think it matters what you say, you will be seen as either 'preaching' of 'defensive' depending on what 'side' you're on.

The thing that gets me riled the most is that people do make excuses, rather than just saying "I don't want to do it - end of story" for whatever reason is sometimes irrelevant, just own your stuff.

We have a family friend who had 5 kids, never breastfed any except the first for about 2 days, and she just says "I didn't want to, that's all". She's honest and open and informed.

I think if you are presented with this you sensitively have to find out if she just doesn't want to do it or there is something else.

I dont want to be contentious... but if all the formula was taken away would people manage to bf, or would the baby starve?

That's what I think when people say to me 'I couldnt bf'.

I dont say anything, I just wonder why they dont just say 'Was far too much like hard work (which it is, bloody hard work), I simply couldnt be bothered' which is probably nearer the truth. And perfectly reasonable.

I know there is a tiny minority of people who genuinly cant, of course. But isnt it something like 5%?

I would imagine it would go back to pre-formula scenarios - wet nursing and poor formula substitutes.
However, HCPs/family members would no longer (we hope) have the option of "Incredibly sore nipples? Well we could spend a while helping you get it right, or you know, bf is hard, why not just give a bottle?"
or
"Your baby seems hungry - are you sure you are eating enough and getting 8 hours sleep every night? Maybe you should top him up, poor little thing looks starving"
Not all HCPs I'd like to point out - mine have been fantastic!

BTW (off topic) you have a LO who is coming up to one, don't you? We are having a birthday catch up in the PN section - post your story!

2 of mine would have starved if there were no formula milk. One just started to scream at the breast and went 48 hours without a feed and ended up in hospital at 4 months old. No one has ever been able to explain that one, even the nct councilor I went to. She went onto ff and never bf again, much to my dismay. The other one was prem and too weak to latch on (she also has cp), I expressed for a while but without a baby on the boob ever, my milk went away after 6 weeks

Some people really can't bf

And to the OP, would someone making the decision to stop bf, ask advice from a councilor? Don't most come as they want to keep feeding?

minorityrules, I am a breastfeeding counsellor and people do ask how to stop breastfeeding - it's not the most common question, but it comes up more than just occasionally. They also want to talk about the possibility of stopping, as they are not sure they want to.

But most people call because they want to continue breastfeeding, you are right there.

Some people's circumstances don't allow them to breastfeed.

Had ds3 been a PFB I would have managed to feed him. I could have sat in the sofa all day if need be and fed. Milk supply would have increased. No problem (I don't have any problem with sitting down watching daytime TV- would be a total joy).

Had I had as much milk as I had with ds1 for ds3 he would have been breastfed - I could have bfed him walking around lifting ds1 off high places. He could have snatched feeds in between the bits that needed my intervention Had ds1 not been severely autistic with no sense of danger I could have bfed ds3 quite easilty. Ds 1 would presumably have responded to his name being called, and would have been playing rather than doing something hideously dangerous, or would perhaps have stayed in the same room with me when asked. Easy peasy,

It was the combination of poor milk supply and severely autistic ds1 that made it impossible.

It's not always as simple as trying harder or not wanting to (I wanted to - I've always hated fiddling with sterilisers- have enough housework type things to do thanks, and hate big bags- far rather just leave the house with a pair of breasts).

If you'd taken ff away then ds1 may have done serious damage to himself. or ds3 would have lost a lot of weight. Not really ideal.

Being a mother of more than one child- especially when they have very different needs is always about compromise and one child doesn't take precedence over the other, you have to find a way to balance all their needs.