Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

What are the stats on birth interventions in Sweden? MyKidsMum's comments about self-attachment reminded me that at the bf workshop my mw's arranged, there was a Norwegian video of a newborn baby gradually finding it's way to the breast - but apparantly - and this is a researched observation, not a value judgement of any kind - any pain medication can hamper the babies instinct to do this.

Crikey aloha. One big difference about Sweden - I went there when I was 15. Everyone doesn't care a whit about nudity. I stayed on a farm and the hosts regularly went about naked. There was even a teenage girl who only put on a swimming costume to do just that - swim. Incidently they also have a very low rate of teenage pregnancies. Britain does have something to learn ... if we can get our heads of the sand that is...

Blu I imagine that pain relief would definately make a difference as the baby has to move itself to find the breast, sometimes almost crawling up the tummy, I should imagine pethidine etc would prevent a babes ability to do thisxx Don't know stats on intervention wouldn't be surprised if they were less too!

IMO it's so emotive for those who can't b/f (as opposed to those who don't choose to) because of the guilt & sense of failure they feel at not being able to cope with the sheer agony b/f can be (much worse than labour IME). Unless this issue is confronted - ie truly understanding why this happens/why it's so difficult for a few- rather than thinking it's a lifestyle choice, b/f rates will not improve. I think NCT should be more realistic in its antenatal classes so women understand how hard b/f can be and therefore don't feel a failure if it doesn't work; similarly health professionals & bf counsellors clearly need to examine why failure rates are so high and how they can help suppport women to succeed at b/f or allow them, guilt-free to go for the bottle (there's nothing like a new mum for needing someone to tell her what she's doing is okay. I was NOT told this except by a v understanding midwife who had seen me try for weeks to master b/f and knew how much it was affecting all our lifes and the mother-baby bond)

nailpolish, I think it's impossible for health professionals to keep up with everything, as you say....but sometimes they don't know they don't know! I know many do try to find out information when it's asked for, but if health professionals do not know/accept there is a health aspect to using formula, and in some cases, that it might have a direct bearing on their situation, then they are quite likely to tell someone not to worry...as they did to that mother.

I can perfectly well understand why pain or difficulties breastfeeding would make some women stop breastfeeding before they really wanted/intended to. But that can't explain why some women never start breastfeeding, surely? That has to be a cultural issue, don't you think?

Aloha, I think so. I lived in Norway for about 6 months - I think they share most relevant statistics with Sweden - and they are just so very down to earth. They are more outdoor than us - even though it's so cold and dark for more of the time, they eat less fanciful food - all v delicious but much less packaged - and there is nothing like the class divide we have here. Everyone receives the same standard of good education, motherhood is taken absolutely seriously...it's a whole different environment. Ummm, they didn't seem to have the most vibrant sense of humour - perhaps that's the crucial difference!

i don't think so - most women leave hospital b/f (officially at least) yet give up, it's unlikely therefore to be a cultural issue for these.

One does get exactly that impression about the Nordic countries, Blu. Very practical and sturdy and yes, (and this may be horribly unfair) a tad humorless. But do like the furniture and and the food!

Having lurked and lurked and LURKED, I'm going to add a bit, finally, of my two pennorth (with a simper at Moondog, I feel sooo flattered). I found feeding my babies - I mean feeding anything, breastmilk, formula, mashed slop, beasn on toast - triggered an absolutely primal response. It's why I panic if they won't/don't eat, even though they're quite clearly well-nourished. The same buttons are pushed as when my younger daughter cries (whereas I can listen to quite tiny babies yowling without feeling the same basic, primal panic). I think that's an absolutely crucial to why we get so irate about this issue.

Watch it, Aloha, speaking as the proud owner of a Swedish surname, who are you calling sturdy, practical and humourless?

Good post MI, it is a primal thing. And the shadow of the HV's scales plays a part too.

ZolaPola, but it's not just the 'success' rates that are so different but the numbers of women who never attempt to breastfeed - a mere 2% in Sweden compared to up to third or more (the stats are somwhere in this marathon thread!) - and that is where I think culture really comes in, surely?

MI Aren't you, I mean that is how I imagine you? Sturdy and humourless I mean feeding organic food whilst breast feeding to 13 months. I mean you are that hairy armpitted sack wearing earth mother aren't you

PS Yes these comments are totally uncalled for but she knows me well enough

Oops! Sorry Motherinferior! But of course you are also terribly exotic, mystical and colourful I do love a racial stereotype. Take me for example, I have Gypsy blood, so never leave your bike unlocked! And I love Nordic people, honestly. Look, I'm off to Ikea tomorrow - I bet nobody's ever been told off for breastfeeding in Ikea, eh? Did you know Paula Yates was chucked out of Harrods for breastfeeding? Grrr.

lol @ never leave your bike unlocked!

I am actually very laidback about my ds's eating. Not because I am such a fab mother or anything, but it just doesn't seem to trigger that 'primal response' in me. I think I am in the minority though. Even on the breastfeeding issue, apart from at the beginning (when my response, was admittedly very primal indeed when ds was whisked off by horrid midwife and given formula against my wishes) I really wanted to breastfeed, am very glad I did, preferred to breastfeed than bottlefeed but didn't torture myself over giving a bottle of formula quite often.

I am actually very laidback about my ds's eating. Not because I am such a fab mother or anything, but it just doesn't seem to trigger that 'primal response' in me. I think I am in the minority though. Even on the breastfeeding issue, apart from at the beginning (when my response, was admittedly very primal indeed when ds was whisked off by horrid midwife and given formula against my wishes) I really wanted to breastfeed, am very glad I did, preferred to breastfeed than bottlefeed but didn't torture myself over giving a bottle of formula quite often.

Lou, you're welcome round mine for roast hedgehog any time

only if it is round your camp fire, sitting on the step of your wooden caravan

i draw the line at wearing gold tho , ok?

I sort of know what you mean about primal, MI....but when you see those notices in Tesco and Asda which talk about five portions of fruit and veg a day, do those 'make' you feel 'guilty'? I don't eat 5 portions a day and I don't think my kids have ever had a single day between them when they have eaten 5 portions a day....no one ever demands that these notices are taken down because they make them feel like a bad mother. Even though getting cabbage down a reluctant little gullet can be quite as difficult as bf

So, if you get my drift, it is something to do with bodies, rather than food/eating/feeding per se, innit?

Hmm yes, when I occasionally give my kids chicken nuggets, I feel a twinge of guilt, but somehow I get over it!

And also, for many mothers, breastfeeding is not the first "failure" they feel as mothers - not delivering vaginally is. Another whole can of worms there, but it's another issue which stirs up defensiveness and fury and accusations of accusations. Perhaps people just don't feel as judged about chicken nugs, not doing the 5 portion thing etc.? And are they right? I get the feeling that non-parents or other parents can be at least as judgemental about things like meals, bedtimes, ironed clothes, properly brushed hair, etc., as about breast or bottle feeding. But for some reason, even though people know they're being judged just as much, they don't have the same emotional response, they find it much easier to shrug it off.

I completely identify with MI's post and the primal feelings, but I also agree with tiktok and Caligula. I would have said that it is something which changes profoundly as your children get older. I used to feel utterly desperate if my children wouldn't eat when they were babies, slightly less bad when they were toddlers, and now feel fairly laid-back about the whole thing. Obviously I don't love them any less (honest) nor am I less attached to them but there just isn't the same kind of gut wrenching feeling you get when they are totally dependent on you. I would say that's why the breast/bottle debate winds people up so much more than the chicken nuggets debate