Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

Does anyone want to start a new thread, there are still a few posts trickling in... maybe not worth it... I've not got anything to add really except that a close family friend is coming to visit in a couple of weeks. She lives in Sweden so I could ask her about b/feeding although she may not know a lot being past that stage herself.

The problem about this topic is that you can't even discuss it without someone assuming you are boasting. (Why would we want or need to do that?) If you go even one stage further and try and empathise, I stress empathise rather than sympathise (although a lot of people don't know the difference) then it is assumed that you are being patronising or superior or both. However I and others I assume, aren?t bringing in any kind of emotion/judgement into the discussion. If people want to draw that out of it then that is their choice. I challenge anyone to find a statement on this board saying ?I am better than you?. You won?t be able to. I also don't understand why people who are so allegedly happy with their decision are getting so upset. This is totally inconsistent.

Bye for now - back if I find out anything about Sweden. Thanks for a good discussion (inane remarks excepted).

point taken tiktok. im not wanting to argue but i did get the feeling that she had had her feelings hurt in some way, not only by zebra. only she would be able to clear that up.

did she not say that she had spoken at length to her gp about it cos her dh is diabetic? he would have mentioned it.

ok, apologies if i am wrong

a new thread?!!!!!!

can we not just bury it?

tiktok, I have just reread the original 'zebra' car seat message (back in the mists of time) and am laughing so much that I can bearly type. Surely noone took that one seriously??!

She is either completely mad,having you on,or had been toking a little too much!

Why should we bury a rational debate comparing breasteeding rates in UK v Sweden?

because i dont think its very constructive and its done to death.

It is very constructive because it exposes flaws in the way breastfeeding is supported in the UK. It has not been done to death because it degenerates in to a Them and Us cat fight. If only people could view it as an interesting topic rather than a perceived slight on their feeding choice it would be fine.

ok

Unfortunately, it's not possible to use the words breastfeeding or bottlefeeding in a thread without inciting WW3

ok fine. thats why i think we should bury it

But that just avoids the issue and if we avoided every issue likely to cause a flare up we'd be left talking about the weather and nothing else. It would be nice if people learnt the difference between a discussion and an attack and how to word things to make it clear.

Tiktok, it would seem that the formula manufacturers are planning some all-out celebrity placement of their products - one of my friends did some market research for a formula company (Milupa, possibly, but they're cagey about it) and lots of the questions were themed around 'which celebrities would influence your choice of formula'.

Jessie Wallace and a trolley-full of SMA would suggest that they're getting ready for an all-out ban on 'proper' adverts of all baby milks.

fine then, carry on with your 'discussion'. lifes too short

Sorry to scratch at a wound, but I also think it's a valuable thing to do to examine why women feel so uncomfortable with the topic that it does elicit such passions. There was a thread a while ago which was "I'm not an Earth Mother because..." which invited everyone to give examples of their short cuts, things not being done the "perfect mother" way etc., which everyone had a real laugh about - things like finding your kid eat off the same plate as the dog or whatever, but women don't feel guilty or sad or inadequate about things like that, nobody accused anyone else of accusing them of being a bad mother, what is it about our culture and experiences that make us feel so much more strongly about this aspect of mothering than any other? Why do we suddenly all get hung up on the impossible image of the perfect mother around this topic? And most of all, what can we as a culture / society do to a)enable mothers to do what they want and b)feel genuinely empowered and comfortable with their choices? Some of that has been addressed in this thread, and I personally think that's valuable.

I'd agree with that, Caligula. Why is it such an emotive topic? I think because there are a lot of feelings of failure and guilt associated with it - if you are desperate to breastfeed and don't get the right advice or support if you're having problems, it can be the first thing you 'fail' at as a mum.

I feel my posts should have an 'I'm not getting at anyone' disclaimer on them because I know how emotional people do get about this subject - I really don't want to upset anyone.

nailpolish, you said:

"did she not say that she had spoken at length to her gp about it cos her dh is diabetic? he would have mentioned it."

She said he had not mentioned it - are you saying she misremembered or something? This is utterly typical of health professionals (as even a cursory reading of these threads will confirm) - they do not know, and if tbey know, they quite often do not say. My money would be on the GP simply not knowing about the link between formula and diabetes.

hunkermunker, I would be pretty sure you are correct. I too have heard stuff about this....one of the major bottle manufacturers, Avent, as it happens, apparently sends a big box of goodies to every celeb that gives birth, and may or may not (don't know about this bit) do a deal with them, by which they agree to have a bottle in the pic when one of the celeb mags visits 'their lovely home'. The logo is no longer fully shown (Hello! got their knuckles rapped about it) but the shape is distinctive enough anyway for it to be recognised.

Has anyone got a link to the Jessie Wallace and SMA pic?

tiktok, thats really sad if the gp did not mention it. im going now.

just a ps before i do go

im a health professional my self and i believe its a huge part of my job to keep myself updated on the latest research findings etc. if i cant answer a question for a patient, relative etc. then i make it my business to find out and get back to them, and to be honest as much as possible and with respect to their feelings. we are not all the same.

As a journalist, I have quite often found that when I have quoted a celebrity talking about breastfeeding (or even an ordinary person) the references are quite often taken out of the published copy. I suspect it is because of the prudish culture here or the thinking that it is vaguely distasteful. Trinny Woodall for example, was really, really keen to talk about how wonderful it was to breastfeed her daughter and how much she actively enjoyed it and she said "I never ever thought it was something I would do" which I also thought was interesting. Here was someone who wasn't particularly keen on the 'idea' of breastfeeding, who certainly isn't a 'hairy-legged earth mother' but who found it actively pleasurable and fed for seven months. Yet when the feature was published that vanished from the article. I also interviewed an utterly fantastic woman who had a child who had to be tube fed for the first few days of her life, who suddenly felt an overwhelming desire to breastfeed, fed her baby and that was a true turning point in her relationship with a child who up until then she felt 'belonged' to the hospital in a way. I thought this was so beautiful and moving, but I think this was also cut out of the published feature. So I do wonder if we didn't think breastfeeding was a bit 'yuck' more of these stories might inspire people to give it a go, and therefore begin to change the culture, thus creating a virtuous circle, iyswim.

IMO it's so emotive for those who can't b/f (as opposed to those who don't choose to) because of the guilt & sense of failure they feel at not being able to cope with the sheer agony b/f can be (much worse than labour IME). Unless this issue is confronted - ie truly understanding why this happens/why it's so difficult for a few- rather than thinking it's a lifestyle choice, b/f rates will not improve. I think NCT should be more realistic in its antenatal classes so women understand how hard b/f can be and therefore don't feel a failure if it doesn't work; similarly health professionals & bf counsellors clearly need to examine why failure rates are so high and how they can help suppport women to succeed at b/f or allow them, guilt-free to go for the bottle (there's nothing like a new mum for needing someone to tell her what she's doing is okay. I was NOT told this except by a v understanding midwife who had seen me try for weeks to master b/f and knew how much it was affecting all our lifes and the mother-baby bond)

I also have very strong memories of some absolutely vile things being written about Paula Yates because she breastfed her daughter Tiger in a quiet corner of a park once and got snapped by a paparazzi. The copy was simply disgusting about her 'flaunting her silicone breasts'. I remember that even as someone who didn't have children and had no real views on breastfeeding I felt angry and upset at the misogyny of the copy and the implication that it was only OK to 'flaunt' your breasts for a sexual purpose, not to feed babies...

For those of you who are still interested in the original questions raised. I have been wondering about this so have done a little research, cxan't post links but can tell you what I found.

Sustained B/f is NOT promoted in Sweden as particularly important for infant health, but over the past decade achange in attitude has lead Swedish women to feed for longer or until their babe is ready to stop. Perhaps therefore because there is NO PRESSURE this leads mums to feel it is their decision and not one being rammed down their throats. Don't quite know how but this kind of makes sense.

Self attachment is common practice in Sweden and Norway, where babes are left to find breast on their own and attach on their own after birth. Normally takes around 50 mins. Research suggests that this method leads to few latching on and incorrect positioning problems and therefore the pain etc that comes with it.It has also been suggested that putting babies to the breast too soon after birth may be causing breastfeeding problems and therefore self attachment should be encouraged.

Am I right in thinking the Swedes just seem so much more liberal in their thinking as a society and therfore more willing to explore more liberal ways of making the experience a more positive one. xxxx

that's true, media-representation is often horrendous, but IMO, that's not what puts most women off! it's the lack of support, understanding etc from all directions - some women simply find b/f agony (see my early post) and that is why they give up.

I also have very strong memories of some absolutely vile things being written about Paula Yates because she breastfed her daughter Tiger in a quiet corner of a park once and got snapped by a paparazzi. The copy was simply disgusting about her 'flaunting her silicone breasts'. I remember that even as someone who didn't have children and had no real views on breastfeeding I felt angry and upset at the misogyny of the copy and the implication that it was only OK to 'flaunt' your breasts for a sexual purpose, not to feed babies...