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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

600 replies

pupuce · 15/11/2004 21:57

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 17/11/2004 19:00

Moondog called me wise

Gobbledigook · 17/11/2004 19:29

No, not really.

Gobbledigook · 17/11/2004 19:32

I'm not convinced it makes that much difference to health, intelligence or anything else. I'm not denying it's 'best' as it's the way nature intended us to feed babies but I think there are far more influential factors that affect your intelligence, chances of having allergies, cancers etc.

I don't buy the 'better for bonding' either - I'm perfectly bonded with my bottlefed children.

advocateofthedevil · 17/11/2004 19:33

"Breastmilk is a living fluid containing active cells that mop up bacteria and viruses as well as antibodies tailored to fight the infections the baby comes into contact with. These factors are entirely missing from artificial substitutes." Seems pretty amazing to me. Never mind, each to her own. Not going to hijack here but was very surprised.

Gobbledigook · 17/11/2004 19:39

Yes it is amazing, but babies have a degree of immunity inherited from the mother anyway and your genetics have a large influence on allergies, susceptibility to illness etc. Hence the fact that many breastfed babies do go on to have asthma, eczema because they were going to have it regardless of how they were fed.

If breastfeeding is going to make a mother desperately unhappy and uncomfortable I really don't think it's the end of the world or of serious risk to the health of their children if they choose to feed with formula.

Jimjams · 17/11/2004 19:49

colostrum's amazing. I'm planning on getting some into my 5 year old autistic ds1 when I have ds3. Was thinking of trying to get some from about now (I'm 33 weeks) he could do with some (and people buy cows colostrum to feed to autistics).

mykidsmum · 17/11/2004 19:55

Trying to keep my nose out of this one but just wanted to say how valid I thought Puffballs remarks were about the power of advertising re formula milk. There is alot of money to be had in the baby food industry. I am not trying to argue or offend anyone BTW.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

PuffTheMagicDragon · 17/11/2004 20:22

hunkermunker, I am well jealous . Going to try and find a solution to the pomegranate problem so maybe I can get a mention in dispatches .

leglebegle · 17/11/2004 20:43

Eulalia, I completely agree with you. It would have been helpful for me to. I was surrounded by successful bf/ders and was mortified when 6 of us all had babies at around the same time and I was the only one who failed! I did it for 8 weeks using an expressing machine, topping up, still trying to bf, using nipple shields and only stopped when I realised I wasn't bonding with my baby and felt like I was on the road to postnatal depression. I really wish you well and hope you enjoyed your wine! going to have one myself in a minute x

leglebegle · 17/11/2004 20:51

puffball and mykidsmum, I am really surprised to hear you say you feel pressure as bf/ders and feel there's pressure about bottle feeding. I have never thought of it that way before. I heard Fiona on GMTV say something like this about a year ago and I completely dismissed her (well she is fiona from gmtv after all!) because she said she felt pressure. When quizzed a bit further about how, she said when she went in to the supermarket she saw the tins of formula. At the time I thought that was so pathetic, I mean I see chocolate bars but I don't feel 'pressured' to eat them! But hearing you say you do as well has made me think about it more from that point of view. I think I just had my baby in such a 'nappy valley' place (wimbledon south london) where it was completely alien to bottle feed. Everyone everywhere whips them out, seriously, you would never feel embarrassed there or pressured!! You feel it if you take out a bottle, daggers looked at you. Honestly I'm not joking. I've moved home now to the North and there was a completely different attitude from the hospital when I had ds2 a few months ago. I was encouraged to bf but when it took the same path as my first experience and I got quite distraught they were all so nice and supportive. Sorry for long post, it just made me think about it from your view.

fisil · 17/11/2004 20:52

pupuce, tiktok & aloha. I'm sorry about how my post might have come across this morning. I actually meant exactly what you have said in reply. I've looked at what I wrote again and I realise that while I had written it with a very gentle, agreeing, kindly tone in my head, it can be read as quite accusatory and angry. I'm really sorry as it is not meant like that. I'm not sure I should try to rephrase what I was saying, as your replies really do say it.

It was me that was scared, not a reality (which I was too cowardly to go near). I was scared that I might just get forced to continue something that was making me hate my baby instead of being helped.

This morning I was trying to get across this fear as part of my answer to your original question of why women don't persevere - because we have misguided fears about what support we might receive. I realised that you were satirising, pupuce, which is why I used those views to support my unfounded fears - ie. I had also perceived those as common views in the past, and was scared that someone I contacted would share those views. What I didn't mean to say is "I know breastfeeding counsellors are like that" - I don't know at all, cos I was too chicken to find out!

Sorry if I caused any upset, I didn't mean to .

mykidsmum · 17/11/2004 21:00

leglebegle, The baby formula industry really is big business and in many third world countries women are pressured into using bottled formula milk where the water simply isn't clean enough for it to be safe. As a result of this there are high WHO stats regarding infant death and links to formula milk which are often quoted and scare bottle feeders in this country which IMO is wrong. I completely respect a womans right to choose however when I had twins this was taken away from me as they were fed a bottle before i had a chance to feed them mysel (long story complications etc). I managed to establish breastfeeding but was under ALOT of pressure to mix feed, so in my experience it can work both ways xxxxx

aloha · 17/11/2004 21:03

Oh Fisil, don't be silly. I wasn't at all offended by anything you wrote. I just wanted to reassure you that I was lucky with the bfc counsellor at Kings and got nothing but help and reassurance in a kind, practical and sensible way. She wasn't even wearing a giant floral smock and leggings She was a hell of a lot less scary than the 'you are starving your baby' agency midwives, that's for sure! I hope that whatever happens next time you feel happy with your decision. It's so easy to misread people's intentions on threads like these.

velcrobott · 17/11/2004 21:36

legelbegel... I too find that formula is always in your face and I have to say I have so often been told that it is so much easier to bottlefeed, you see how much baby gets, someone else can give the bottle, you can be morer independent, babies gains weight faster (well at least they say so though that was not my experience) .... and on certain days - these feels quite tempting believe me ! If you BF you are seriously attached to your child unless you choose to express.... so to me formula has on many occasions felt tempting... especially when I was the last one in my antenatal group to steel breastfeed.

velcrobott · 17/11/2004 21:37

still

Tortington · 17/11/2004 22:40

just seen the cheap food comparison - i think processed shite is much cheaper than healthy stuff, however i think breast is cheaper than bottles. it was a very hard time for me having babies and my philosophy was always to do things which made my life easy. of course this is not for everyone and i appreciate others points of view, i hope others can appreciate mine when i say being the mother of babies was a harrowing experience i am never going to repeat, so harrowing in fact that i can barely stand to be in a room with a crying baby. everyones experience of motherhood is different, i think we should respect peoples choices. i didnt want to breastfeed - was it a cultural/class decision? i think not as i had never been " exposed" to babies before - i was an only child and babies never came up in conversation - one would assume therefore that with no previous knowledge or experience the natural choice would be breast but for me it wasnt - 1)i just didnt want to,
2)i didnt want to perservere, have cracked nipples, wonder how much my baby was actually feeding and took the easier route

my life was such at the time that i was in no fit state to perservere with anything. the birth of my first was traumatic and life threatening to me on top of the shock of going home with a new baby and all that entails, no family support - no siblings and a husband who was thrown into fatherhood shortly after marriage and was as then untrained and quite a tosser ( hes a lovepot now )

many factors contribute to ones decision - am sure there will be following stories of horrific births and they did it - so why shouldn't i? well cos your not me and despite a very brief desciption of my circumstances have no idea about me at that time or my lifestyle.

i didnt want to i dont care if cracked nipples shouldnt be a factor - that element alone wouldnt have changed my decision - so dont come all over telling me about the miricle cream - its irrelevent becuase that was a small factor in a big lifechange.

do i look down on chastise or make judgements on breastfeeders? no. i respect peoples choices. breast might be best but its just not for everyone and i would like respect for my decision - if that is not forthcoming then acceptance that i did what was rightfor me mentally and physically at the time to allow me to be the best mother i could at the time.

hunkermunker · 18/11/2004 01:17

I would never ask or expect anyone to justify their decision not to breastfeed - it is none of my business. I know what was right for me and my child, I expect other women to know what is right for them and their children! I think the issue here is not women who don't want to breastfeed, but women who desperately want to and cannot for whatever reason.

Some of them will have insurmountable reasons (such as taking drugs incompatible with breastfeeding), some will physically not be able to do it, but the largest number will be women who would be able to do it if they got the right support.

There are mums on this thread and the others on breastfeeding that have been started in recent days who did desperately want to breastfeed and were let down by the people who were meant to be helping them. In most cases, that will be impossible to change for those women now. But should we perpetuate this by not talking about how to make support better and trying to understand why things went wrong? I don't think so. It is a subject that a lot of people will find uncomfortable to discuss, but unless it is discussed, I don't think the situation will change.

Thank you to all who have contributed to my thread about postnatal support. I'd love to hear more ideas.

Eulalia · 18/11/2004 09:39

Gobbledigook - you say "but babies have a degree of immunity inherited from the mother anyway and your genetics have a large influence on allergies, susceptibility to illness etc. Hence the fact that many breastfed babies do go on to have asthma, eczema because they were going to have it regardless of how they were fed."

Yes this is true there is a large genetic component to illneses but this is precisely why so many women who have these traits do breastfeed because the excema etc would be so much worse if they didn't. Also immunity inherited from the mother may last for a short time for illnesess such as chickenpox but won't help for common infections such as colds and stomach upsets. it is well documented that there are more hospital admissions for gastro-enteritis for example in bottle fed babies. Also a mother may want to breastfeed for hte health benefits to herself (this often seems to get forgotten). Not having a go by the way I am just correcting what I see as another breastfeeding myth.

Here is the 'science' if you are interested. Its actualy an article about feeding older babies (which of course is another issue!)

Immunological Protection

This article was originally written in 1999 by Kathryn Orlinsky.

The immunological properties of human milk may be as important as the nutritional aspects of human milk. How do we know that human milk really does make a difference in preventing disease? Many studies show that children who are fed human milk substitutes end up sick or hospitalized at a much greater rate than children who breastfeed. For example, diarrhea was significantly reduced in infants fed human milk compared with bottle-fed and weaned children.9,19,20 Most bacterial infections are caused by organisms that are already colonizing the host, usually in the gastrointestinal or respiratory tracts. Human milk may prevent the growth of these bacteria.

There are several ways in which human milk protects children from infection. Human milk contains antibodies (immunoglobulins) which can help ward off disease in the infant. Human milk is particularly high in immunoglobulin A (IgA);10 there is more IgA in human milk than in serum.6 IgA binds to viruses and bacteria, particularly those that enter through the gut and other mucus membranes. This is especially protective of infants, who are always putting things in their mouths.

In addition to antibodies, human milk also contains lysozyme and lactoferrin, two antibacterial enzymes which protect against a host of infectious agents, including E. coli and Staphylococcus.3

Human milk also contains whole immune cells called white blood cells. Many of these cells are phagocytes, so called because they engulf bacteria and viruses, especially if these germs have IgA attached to them. Other immune cells in human milk include B cells, which make antibodies, and T cells, which attack diseased cells.17

How can these antibodies and other proteins help the infant if they are swallowed and digested along with the nutritional components of human milk? It turns out that these immune factors are resistant to proteolysis in the infant's gut.7,8 Ninety percent of the IgA in human milk exists in a complex with secretory component (SIgA).10 SIgA is resistant to trypsin digestion in the neonatal gut.22

Another way human milk protects children from disease is by favoring the growth of beneficial microorganisms. These benign colonizations prevent dangerous infections from taking hold. For example, bifidobacteria are more numerous in breastfed infants than in those fed with human milk substitutes.1,3 This may be because of nucleotide salts present only in human milk, however, when these nucleotide salts were added to the human milk substitutes, the growth of bifidobacteria was still discouraged.1 Breastfeeding may also favor the proliferation of bacteria with decreased virulence.15,21 These strains may be more sensitive to bactericidal agents in serum, more prone to agglutinization, or less able to attach to epithelial surfaces.14

Human milk does not contain the same proportion of immune cells and antibodies that are found in the mother's blood, nor does it contain a stationary amount of these protective agents.4 Human milk contains much more IgA and less immunoglobulin M than serum does.6 In addition, the type of T cells predominantly found in human milk is different from the predominant type of T cell found in serum.17 This is because the mammary glands themselves contain lymphoid cells which produce the IgA antibodies needed by the breastfeeding child.10,13,18 This mechanism is functional throughout lactation. In addition to providing protection from specific germs in the infant, the production and secretion of these immunological factors by the mother's mammary gland may be linked to the development of the child's own immune system.4

Skeptics have said, "yes, human milk benefits infants, but older children cannot continue to receive immunity by breastfeeding, can they?" The answer to this question is a resounding yes. Children enjoy health benefits for as long as they breastfeed. Studies have compared weaned children with breastfeeding children at 30 months16 and at 36 months,20,23 and found them to be sicker. In some parts of the world, weaned toddlers have a mortality rate three and a half times higher than toddlers who receive human milk.20 Weaning foods and even water from some regions are highly contaminated with E. coli,2 but even undernourished mothers from these regions produce ample milk antibodies.5

There are at least two reasons why breastfeeding continues to benefit older children. First, human milk contains immune factors regardless of the duration of lactation. Both lysozyme and SIgA levels have been found in human milk for the entire period of lactation studied, including the second year.10,12,13 Many of these immune factors would be otherwise unavailable.13 Second, human milk is more easily tolerated by a sick child than weaning foods. Thus, breastfeeding ensures that sick children remain hydrated and do not lose excessive weight. For a more detailed description of how breastfeeding can help an older child combat a severe illness, see What if he hadn't been nursing?

There are special cases where human milk is particularly high in immune factors. Colostrum is exceptionally rich in immune factors, containing more white blood cells per unit volume than blood.17 Preterm milk also contains more immune factors than term milk, both in colostrum and mature milk.11 Newborns and premature infants need immunological protection more than toddlers, and they get that increased protection in the human milk they consume. This does not preclude older children from benefiting immunologically from continuing to breastfeed.

Fennel · 18/11/2004 10:09

I always feel it's a shame you can't bottlefeed just for the first few weeks to get over the shock and trauma of birth, and then sort the breastfeeding in a month or two when things are less traumatic. even tho I did carry on it did really spoil my first few weeks with dd1 and I still don't know if that was worth it.

advocateofthedevil · 18/11/2004 10:24

Why is it impossible to have a discussion about breastfeeding without people using phrases like "breastfeeding terrorist" or without bottle feeders getting all het up that it's a dig at them?

Pupuce asked a reasonable question : why are UK breastfeeding rates so much lower than Sweden? It can't be that UK women are designed differentl such that bf-ing is more difficult so what is it?

Somehow, this has turned into an assault by the "Bottle Feeding Terrorists". Can't we have a sensible discussion? If you have nothing constructive to say about the original point, don't say it (that goes for breast and bottle feeders alike). If the subject matter upsets you, don't look. There have been threads recently with much more scope to upset other posters yet they remain civilised. Why can't we make the effort to be civilised and sensible about breast feeding too

aloha · 18/11/2004 10:26

To show how differently we all feel, I didn't know just how much I wanted to breastfeed until my son was born and was in my arms, and then it became extremely important to me. Which was why the pressure - the very intense bullying pressure - to bottlefeed was so distressing to me when I was very vulnerable. Getting good gut flora by breastfeeding is especially valuable for caesarian babies and I'd been taking probiotics for that very purpose, so to have him literally taken away from me and fed formula was extremely upsetting. I've said this elsewhere, but if I was younger or less determined and the idea of breastfeeding at that point and always regretted it. I suspect in Sweden, say, the midwives wouldn't have done what happened to me, which may be one of the reasons why the rate of breastfeeding is different.

aloha · 18/11/2004 10:28

meant to say "may have give up the idea of breastfeeding"

MissChief · 18/11/2004 10:38

true, hospitals often let down new mums & babes, so too in my experience do bf counsellors - my experience was that they were extremely pro-bf, not at all supportive of those with problems and rather dismissive of how hard/painful some women find b/f. Yet the response on here from reps from NCT etc is on occasion aggressive and not accepting of the slightest criticism, very off-putting. If i ever have another child I am even MORE inclined never to call a bf counsellor but to trust instead in a more balanced opinion from a health professional such as a midwife, hv. Rather than demanding of mothers, young or otherwise why they are put off bf either by choice or difficult experience, the counsellors should demonstrate that self-awareness in which they are suppposedly trained (IMO natural bloody empathy, ability to be less dogmatic and to LISTEN preferable to any training! )

aloha · 18/11/2004 11:12

legle, I am really sorry at what certainly sounds like an awful encounter with an NCT counsellor. She was wrong to tell you what to do, anyway, and Um, is this - from Tiktok - what you mean about not accepting the slightest criticism?
"what she (NCT counsellor) said sounds questionable, to say the very least. You can complain - I wish people would. There is an option on the bf line number to leave feedback. If you want to be anon, that's ok, too...though it's obviously less possible for NCT to actually do anything specific (such as tracking down the counsellor) if you are."
Because that's not how I read it. If you ever read a thread where Tiktok or Pupuce are advising - then you can see how supportive they are whatever the choices. As they say, at least half their calls are from women wanting to stop breastfeeding. They give a lot of time for free to help people, they really do.
If you do want to breastfeed and do run into problems, I really would urge you to get advice from a trained bfc - and no I'm not one! - rather than a midwife or HV, because they don't tend to give 'balanced' advice IMO, they give 'wrong' advice! My experience of properly trained breastfeeding support is of practical, kind and helpful people.

aloha · 18/11/2004 11:13

Sorry, I mangled my cut and paste, but I think you get my drift.