Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

thanks, aloha

Your explanation is pretty good, marialuisa...but in fact, quite a lot (not all) of the research in bf does control for the confounding factors.

i also find the links posted useful and informative - and if you are a sceptic then it is even more handy to have the info presented to you to form your own opinion than to have to rely on somebody's statements IYSWIM

and puff (posts crossed)

and mtoS

Tiktok, I didn't say it din't contribute to discussion, I just don't take it as "gospel" in the way some do.

TBH I haven't read enough of the individual journal articles to know what levels of control are put in place but I've read enough to know that many don't control completely. TBH I wouldn't expect them too, recruiting participants for this sort of thing is hard enough without having to get detailed info on SES, family circs, housing, diet etc. and match every baby!

As I've said if people want to bf, fine, if people want to convince more of the undecided to bf, fine. But please understand that there are some sections you won't reach.

its too late for me girls - kids are 32, 30, 28 healthy, sane and competent.

I chose not to breastfeed and am confident in that very personal decision.

I think all the information you're throwing at this thread - trying to inform and educate is having the opposite effect - you're alienating people and I'm sure thats not what you want to do.

Tiktok-your point about health info on its own being useless is true. but I was alos trying to explain that the people doing the promoting are, IME and that of others, rarely people you warm to. I don't appreciate being told to do things when they are things I have a free choice about. I react against this sort of thing and so do many others. So, a strident HV presenting that info as gospel, accompanied by the whole AP baggage (your life wil be centred around your baby etc.) was a big turn-off.

Haven't read the whole thread but my answer to the question "why can't we all just bf?" is I just didn't want to with ds2.

Did it with ds1 and it was a very exhausting and traumatic experience and under no circumstances was I going to do it again with a baby and an almost 2 year old. Should I feel guilty about this? I don't think I should because to me I had very valid reasons for not ever wanting to bf again. I truly believe I would have had PND if I had to go through that experience again - I HATED IT.

Ds2 is now 2 and I honestly believe that being formula fed didn't harm him in any way. He doesn't get ill any more than his brother and I too am healthy and I was also bottle fed.

I think there is so much pressure when you have a new baby that you should be allowed to choose whichever method of feeding is best for you and your whole family without having to feel guilty.

JoolsToo - well that was an interesting contribution to this discussion (not).

Moondog

But stripey - you are "allowed to choose" - not sure I understand this, no one is preventing choice. And well we've covered the guilt issue here already - no-one, particularly someone you don't even know can make you feel anything.

Moondog I'm sorry, but not all bf counsellors are really lovely wise people. In a perfect world maybe, but not in the part of the world I had ds1. After calling mine (who had her name down via the nct as being 'on call' that weekend) I was left feeling crap. She said she couldn't see me because she was too busy with her daughter (why put your name down then) and advised me over the phone to under no circumstances bottle feed my baby either expressed or formula milk as he would then only have a bottle. She said I should get a syringe and drip the milk down his throat. My midwife came round shortly after the conversation (very pro breastfeeding by the way) and told me if I didn't get 3 0z down baby there and then she was re admitting him to hospital as he was severely dehydrated. I didn't find the bf counsellor to be at all helpful, lovely or nice. Of course some of you are, but I think its a bit daft to say all of them are, thereby negating many people's experiences.

Pupuce - I used the example yesterday of my very nice health visitor and the chicken nuggets example. She could see I was very depressed about not bf well and was trying to make me see there were other things I could usefully do as a mother to help my child get proper nutrition throughout his life. That's all I was trying to do last night as I could see some people on here felt very down about it. Not a competition, I cook organic food, you don't, just a reminder that bf is not the be all and end all of motherhood.

This is such a contentious topic. I had a truly rotten time of BFing. DS wanted to eat every 1 1/2 to 2 hours and would frequently nurse for 40 minutes! I had mastitis, blocked ducts, cracked and bleeding nipples the whole thing. I had really and truly looked forward to BF as a beautiful, natural way to bond more closely with my baby. It was one of the biggest disappointments of my life when it didn't work out that way. After I went back to work and ds had a bottle, he began pounding on my chest while nursing (to make it come faster?). At the end of it I would be drenched in sweat with every muscle in my body tensed.

I wound up expressing for a year. 6 times a day until he was 6 months old and gradually cut back so that at the end of the year I could stop with no ill effects. He was able to be on BM exclusively for 7 1/2 months and then 1/2 and 1/2 until 13 months. It was grueling. People were shocked that I kept it up and I even had one friend (a "successful" BF'er) say to me, "I give you permission to stop doing this."

I'm glad ds was able to have the BM but it took an immense toll. During this entire first year I had bouts of suicidal moments as a result of severe PND. Almost as soon as I stopped expressing things got better. Was it hormones or just the fact that I was so glad to stop? I'll never know. There is so much pressure these days on this subject. I found women who successfully BF tended to be a bit smug about it as well, which was not at all helpful.

So, DS got his BM which I feel good about, I got my sanity back finally which I feel really, really good about and I am still, unbelievably, to this day struggling with feelings of guilt that I wasn't able to "do it right". God, don't we have enough stress as mothers without adding this to it?

I don't recall that anyone actually said that bf is the be all and end all of motherhood.

legle, I am really sorry at what certainly sounds like an awful encounter with an NCT counsellor. She was wrong to tell you what to do, anyway, and what she said sounds questionable, to say the very least. You can complain - I wish people would. There is an option on the bf line number to leave feedback. If you want to be anon, that's ok, too...though it's obviously less possible for NCT to actually do anything specific (such as tracking down the counsellor) if you are.

NCT people are never on call on the line to give a personal visit, though - sorry you have been misled that way.

yes eulalia (can't believe I have to point this out) but when you can't bf and all the advice is that it is the best thing for your baby, you feel incredibly sad and as if it is the be all and end all.

oh tik tok I wish I had complained. Why didn't I? I think I was just overwhelmed with it all really. So wish I had. Found the nct in general to be fab and was so disappointed with that aspect.

Joolstoo I think your contribution was valuable and refreshing. And I think the point that in the greater scheme of motherhood or even just nutrition -- not breastfeeding is not the end of the world was a valid one.

jabberwocky - crikey, good for you! but surely you'd not want someone else to go through what you did, isn't this the whole point of this topic, to find out just what goes wrong for people like you and to help others.

leglebegel - the orginal point of this discussion is that htere are many women who think they can't or are put off and they have really want to b/feed- counsellors want to help those people. Obviously you feel sad (don't know your circumstances) but I repeat for many it is really helpful to know about the difficulties that there could be (that you could have had for all I know). I know for sure that it would have helped me enormously.

And for the record I feel sad about many things, particularly having a special needs child (feel a bit yukky bringing him into this but..) however I don't tell people who have 'normal' children to stop enjoying their achievements and to post about them on this board.

True, I wouldn't want anyone else to go through what I did. Just not sure that it could have gone any other way for me. I did the whole lactation consultant thing and it just didn't work.

Eulalia - I have in no way shape or form suggested that we shouldn't know about the difficulties there could be! Don't really know why you are telling me that. I was only replying about the 'be all and end all' comment from you to me. I'm saying I don't think anyone on this thread has said that to bottle feeders, its just something you think yourself when you are feeling very sad about it as a non b/feeder. Of course we should have as much information as possible. I'm not sad anymore, very happy with my choice, but was very miserable at the time, with all the hormones flying about and so I can understand so well how others might feel. I'm really honestly not telling successful breastfeeders that they shouldn't post on here and can't believe you have interpreted it that way to be honest. If making a comment about chicken nuggets has provoked this sort of a reaction it just shows how people can really be misinterpreted about such an emotional subject.

OK - now I am getting emotional!

I know it would have helped me to have had someone who had problems to talk to and who had either overcome them or had given up. I know it would be brave of someone to open old wounds so to speak but all I had around me when I was strugging to b/feed ds was very successful b/feeders who just made me feel inadequate.

Our preparation at antenatal classes was just a joke. If there had been more women there who'd just said "look this could happen and if it does, get help or try this different position etc" then it would have saved me a lot of time and discomfort. Obviously it would be useful to hear from successful b/feeders too, but it always helps to get both sides of the story.

Again I feel that this was the spirit of this whole thread, to find out what can go wrong and what can be done about it, it was never a dig at anyone (this isn't directed at you leglebegel) but of course, as usual it gets turned into wrongly founded accusations.

Anyway 'nuff said. I need a glass of wine.

I'm puzzled. Trawling through these messages, it seems that a lot of women are angry about 'pressure to breastfeed'. Am I living on another planet? In my view there is more emphasis on bottlefeeding! Everyone seems to be doing it, magazines are full of ads for formula, and any article you read on feeding, emphasises the point that you shouldn't feel guilt if you can't or won't breastfeed.

I also find the idea of health professionals pressuring people very odd too. I work for the NHS and noone I know has any time to pressure anyone about anything!

Anyway, if you are feeling 'pressured' don't you feel at least glad that someone is encouraging you to do the best for your babe?
Noone comes back from the dentist saying
'God that bloke is really hassling me to clean my teeth more often' or from the doctor saying 'That patronising bitch is always on at me about my blood pressure' do they?!

I have been on the receiving end of many unkind remarks about breastfeeding, all from people with similar aged children. People have shuddered and said 'yuck' in my face, told me they think it is 'disgusting' and one member of my mother and baby group was taking pictures of each of us with our children and then when she came to me said 'I'm not having a picture of you with those hanging out!' and put her camera away.

Puffball - you are right about the doctor/dentist thing BUT, as someone who bottle feeds I don't think I'm putting my children at any risk of illness which of course you would be if you ignored the doctor or dentist.

If you are convinced that the benefits of bf are so amazing that's different. I'm not.

Excuse me? You don't think the benefits of breastfeeding are amazing?