Why can't we just all breatsfeed?

[pupuce]

Seeing the recent debates on breastfeeding, I didn't want to take part in the discussion as I didn't feel I could add to the debate but I was reading this and thought.... why is it that so many women who ended up bottlefeeding have stories of "not enough milk", "baby not thriving", etc.... so we have a BF rate in this country of barely 1 in 2 babies breastfed after 1 week (that's not impressive if you do know that breast is best)... why is it that the Swedes have 98%....
I am sure it's a combination of factors.... but it does mean that too many people in this country have a "wrong reason" for not BF.... surely many women have not enough information about milk production to feel that they truly didn't have enough milk....

OK - am I starting world war 3 ??? hope not

I'd agree with that too Uwila. I suppose given the benefits of bf for many families (but not mine) I just think it would be better if the info given out wasn't so off-putting. And I don't think there's any way of reaching mums like me who knew bf just wasn't an option for them, but I assume I'm in a minority.

marialuisa - not really - I'll join your gang if you like

Out of interest, does anyone know what percentages fall into each of these groups in the UK:

• want to breastfeed and manage successfully for 3+ months

• want to breastfeed but are unable to feed for longer than 3 months

• want to breastfeed but are unable to for medical reasons

• don't want to breastfeed

This info may have been posted already but I can't find it if it has!

That's an interesting one Stickynote. I wonder. I'd imagine there'd be quite a few who 'don't want to breastfeed' and although some of them will stick by their choice and go with bottlefeeding, I think many will feel pressured into doing it and will do it cos they feel they should, not actually enjoying it.

I know a fair few people like that who were counting the days till they thought they'd reached a reasonable place to stop.

stickynote, yes, there are stats to answer most of your questions. You can see them at the department of health site where there is the whole of the UK bf survey (done every 5 years) in pdf. Look for Infant Feeding 2000.

In 2000, 2 per cent of mothers said they chose to formula feed because of medical reasons.

When looking at why mothers stop, of those that stop before 6 weeks, only one per cent say the reason for stopping was because they had bf for as long as they intended to; between 6 weeks and 4 mths, it was 4 per cent; between 4 mths and 6 mths it was 6 per cent.

28 per cent of babies are breastfed, partially or fully, at age 4 mths (they don't ask what happens at 3 mths).

But that's ok, isn't it, GdiG? Doing something you don't especially like doing because you feel you want to do it for the baby's sake? And continuing until you feel it is reasonable to stop?

I don't think anyone should be forced or pressured into a feeding method they don't like - whether it is breast or formula. But many women will do something they would, in an ideal world, not do, for the sake of the baby.

CD wanted to breastfeed, and no one would have locked her up if she had done but she chose to do something she would otherwise not have done, ie formula feed, for her baby's sake.

Similarly, I think it is bloss on these boards who did not like bf, but chose to do it, for her baby's sake.

Thank you

Tiktok - yes it is and some of those people who don't want to and do it for the sake of the baby end up enjoying it and that's great.

However, there are some that do it for the baby's sake (like I did to start with) and it makes them downright miserable and depressed. IMO I think it's very sad that these people have felt so pressured that the early months of their babies' lives has been marred by unhappiness. The first months with ds1 were for me, downright miserable and I thoroughly enjoyed ds2 and ds3 because I didn't put myself through it again.

I don't think the benefits of bf in that case outweigh the trauma that some women go through.

I think everyone should be provided with all the relevant information but ultimately be supported and respected regardless of the decision they make.

On the other thread that was not the case with Buka telling bottle feeders they were carrying out mass experiment on their babies for which 'the prognosis is not good. Sleep well won't you?'

Well no, one person didnt' sleep well and was upset enough to post a thread asking for reassurance and she really shouldn't have been put through that as the chances are she has put her baby at no risk at all.

tiktok - ooops I should know as I live in Scotland too!

Uwili - you state "The useful research topic would be how to contribute to successful breastfeeding in those who would like to succeed, but give up." but this is precisely what pupuce is intending to find out here! I thought this was bleeding obvious!

I am sad that this has turned into the usual have a go at breastfeeders - seems that it is OK to do that but not the other way round. No-one here has used the words "should" or any other moral imperative.

oldqueencole - you said "What is the point in targetting mothers who haven't breastfed - do you expect them to go back in time and start again?" Err no (sorry if I am speaking for you pupuce). This is just silly. For a start pupuce didn't "target" anyone and if some who chose to respond (remember no-one forces you to actually read these threads) didn't breastfeed and was able to explain why then this information will be useful for those who do intend to in the future. How would a good breastfeeding counsellor be able to explain to today's teenagers the potential problems and difficulties of b/feeding unless she'd actually spoken to anyone who had already been through the experience. No point in speaking to the successful breastfeeders is there?

Anyway had enough of moaning minnies who just seem to want to antagonise and stick their head in the sand and prevent us from actually finding out anything useful.

Eulalia 10:19
Eloquent well balanced points.

Velcrobott 11:45
My sentiments exactly! Breastfeeders (myself included) started to flex their muscles precisely because some bott.. bolshy bottle (sorry, needy wrote 'bottom' - Freudian slip surely?!)started to become aggressive.

(Seems to suggest that because some can't or won't, those that do and are proud aren't allowed to congratulate themselves for doing an excellent job. It's like someone who has a nice slim toned body not being allowed to enjoy it and show it off for fear of upsetting all the out of shape flabby people around her.

Marialuisa 1:23 I would love to know (honestly now, this is not a trick question) how the info given out about b/feeding is 'offputting' Que?

Someone said they now feel put off by the thought of going to a b/feeding counsellor (presumably thinking that they are all nasty militants like me!) Well don't be, they are all lovely people who usually give up a great deal of time and money to help women who want to breastfeed their babies. I have dealt with loads and have never heard any of them 'slag off' bottlefeeders (even when the door is closed and there isn't one within miles!)They are lovely gentle wise people like Pupuce,Hunkermunker and
Tiktok.

For the record I was pretty ambivalent about b/feeding before I had kids (couldn't get my head around being a mother let alone feeding!) despite coming from a very 'pro' family. When no 1 arrived, I had a bloody awful time for about 8 weeks, everything that you people talk about and more. But thanks to the lovely MWs and ABM counsellors in my area I got through, plus I may add, an absolute conviction that I would see this thing out, in much the same way that I gritted my teeth and got through the rigorous professional training I did to get the job of my dreams

Proud of myself? Too bloody right I am! It was the hardest thing I ever did (at one stage even the family were gently suggesting bottles)but it all worked out.

My opinions and tone may offend, but let it be known that I speak as an individual not as a representative of any organisation. My tone is not measured and moderate like some here. Neither do I want it to be. I spend my working day listening to a variety of people talking through their a**s whilst I have to nod, listen, smile and consider their viewpoint. So when I leave work...sod that!

I also am surprised that offence is taken. Reminds me of my grandmother (rip) who was always complaining to my sisters and me about some terribly vulgar programme she had seen on television, to which our answer was invariably
'Well why did you watch it then?!'

May I suggest some sort of code to assist those who are easily offended? Something along the lines of:

• Anodyne chat (eg where to buy mittens that stay on and who does the best cappucino) No nastiness whatsoever.

** Humorous chat (Largely harmless but perhaps the occasional dig at MILs and recaltricant husband who leave their undies on the floor.)

* Mildy mean chat (Sour comments about teachers, neighbours)

Full-on no-holds barred bare knuckle fighting (Breastfeeding,Macdonalds,Dubya,drugs and semi-feral youths beating up old ladies for drugs money)

A veritable pick 'n' mix non? I know which ones I'd go for.

My last words on the subject:

Some people don't want to breastfeed. Your kids, so frankly who cares apart from you and yours?Just ensure that you know what you are putting down their gullets.

Some people couldn't but wanted to. Terribly upsetting that you didn't get the info and help you needed. If there is a next time, hope it works out. If there isn't a next time, let it go, can't go on feeling bad for ever. Why not extricate some good from the subject by contributing to Hunkermunker's thread.

Some people wanted to and succeeded. Hooray for you!!! You are all stars!!! Isn't it wonderful?!

Right, must get on. Need to find somewhere to air and discuss my next big issue, namely how to get pomegranate juice out of my teatowels.

It was good to talk.

Moondog has now left the building!!!

moondog - I'm in awe

moondog!

GdiG - look, I also think it's sad if someone's first months of motherhood are spoiled by depression and feelings of pressure. What sort of person do you think I am? But don't assume that someone who doesn't like bf is continuing to do it for months because other people have put them under pressure - maybe that pressure has come from them, from their own desires to do something of their choice. I also think it's sad that someone's early months are spoiled because they didn't manage to bf when they wanted to - because of the crap support seen detailed here.

Moondog . I've missed you.

Still struggling with those multiple choice questions you gave me earlier this morning .

Both breastfeeders and formula feeders were getting along JUST FINE on this thread until 8.26pm last night.

Hey ho. It's not quite as bad as the thread where someone likened not breastfeeding a child to putting them in an unstrapped car seat. Thankfully, we had a sensible midwife around to address that "truly awful" analogy.

Think you are that same sensible midwife by the way tiktok .

Moondog-as a moderately intelligent 21 year old I knew that much of the breastfeeding research didn't control for confounds. I also don't appreciate being patronised and talked down to. The rather dated pics they use in campaigns (see Tiktok's LLL leaflets) aren't exactly designed to appeal are they? Shallow maybe, but given I didn't know any bfeeders I had no reason to reject the picture I developed.

As I said, I wasn't in any doubts about my choice but questions have been asked about how to get bf to appeal to more mothers, esp younger mothers.

BTW, I apply the same crtiticisms to all govt health info in my post. I can't be too wide of the mark given the epidemic levels of STDs etc. The materials (and those delivering them) are not doing their job.

MariaLuisa -what does "control for confounds" mean?

I'm not a midwife, BTW, puff....'sane and sensible' I will own up to, of course

The 'floral leggings' leaflets were MIDIRS 'Informed Choice' leaflets, not LLL ones - in fact, the current Dept of Health leaflets are not at all bad, but they don't have the depth of info of the MIDIRS ones.

Leaflets and posters and in fact most health ed material on any topic you care to think of is pretty useless on its own. When you are asking people to change their behaviour, you need a lot more than this.

tiktok - methinks you're a woman on a mission (looking at your previous posts)- you've got Government figures and web links coming out of your ears [yawn].

You've got a bloody big drum there and I wish you'd stop banging it - its giving me a headache

Oh god....not 'sane and sensible' just 'same sensible'...... Flattering myself, there

jools - I only put websites and statistics on here when people ask for them. What's wrong with that?

Well, I personally think Tiktok's posts are interesting and informative. I had, for example, no idea that the amount of milk you store in your breasts varied from woman to woman and might well account for why some babies need more frequent feeds than others. She has been enormously helpful to many women on Mumsnet over the years who have come to her for kind and informed advice on breastfeeding. It's her JOB, and I for one am bloody glad she's well informed and knows the latest research. I think being so rude is just unbelievable, I really do. I wasn't going to post again as felt so bullied, but that just isn't fair. Tiktok is answering other people's questions , are you saying she can't do that on a public forum?

This explanation will be pants, much more DH's line of things than mine.

Basically any research using people cannot be adequately controlled, so in these studies the breastfed babies do not live in identical conditons, have not had identical births (we all know what a wide range of experiences the term "normal birth" covers!) etc. Typically bottlefed (from the start) babies tend to come from poorer families etc. so all those factors
could affect the babies' chances of developing higher obesity or whatever.

sorry, that's as clear as mud. But knowing that, (and what a poor reputation medical research has) i was underwhelmed by the apparent health benefits as DD was being brought to more advantaged conditions.

Most non-animal research has these problems though. Unfortunately people are a lot more complicated than lab rats

I also think that evidence and properly-sourced information is a useful addition to a discussion - and the links mean that people can look at the evidence for themselves and come to their own conclusion. I'm funny that way

i get it, ML. that with humans it's very difficult to allow for the different environmental and genetic variables - i.e. whether circumstances of birth/home circumstances/maternal diet during pg might affect likelihood of infection as much as bfing/not bfing.

my view of the stats referred to earlier in this or the other recent bfing thread to show health benefits/risks of bfing is that they seem to be comparatively small survey samples - a few hundred. but that is a whole different argument(!).

I've read all the links tiktok has posted with great interest. She's banging a drum, but she's not being patronising or rude about it, just informative.