So is it just me who has viscerally negative reactions to talk about breastfeeding 4 or 5 year olds

[TwigorTreat]

Now look I know its different strokes for different folks and I am not judging anyone as I know logically that its fine and anyone who does is doing what they deem their very best for their own children.

But I am talking about a experiencing a sense of distaste that I cannot help. I do have a negative and almost physical reaction to the thought of breastfeeding my 3 year old let alone an older child. And I have discussed this before when it came to extending breastfeeding for my own child beyond 6 months and with the discussion was capable of making it past that psychological barrier to 11 months.

Perhaps the thought of having a reasonable discussion over this particular reaction is just a step too far for us on Mumsnet. But I thought I'd give it a go anyway .. what, with it being Saturday and all that.

Anyone who experiences the same sense of negativity will no doubt need to gulp down hard before adding to this discussion. Just as anyone who is on the 'other side of the fence' will need to take copious amounts of oxygen into their system to calm down before posting .. I hope both sides do though... it could be interesting and educational

harpsi i can't remember if i've already asked this now this thread has got so long, but when did you stop feeding public. and if you've already answered this sorry!!

don't worry!
I fed dd1 until she was three and a helf but after about 18 months I rarely fed her in public because she only asked to feed at bed time and nap time, when we were out of th ehouse she would never ask, unless e.g. she fell over and got very distressed, but that was once in a while.
I fed her in hospital while I was in labour with dd2! but that was the closest to "public" feeding. she would have been 2.5.
dd2 is two next month I feed her very frequenly in public because she asks for it more often. very forcefully

ah yes now i've read your reply i remember you saying it.

waves back at beautifuldays

i would love it if i saw a 4 or 5 year old breastfeeding in public.

it would really make me feel all warm inside. i saw a 3 year old bf in public the other day. i went over to the woman and said i hope you don't mind me asking but how old is she cos i think what you are doing is so lovely.

she very nearly cried at my kindness and bought me a cake saying that was the most positive thing anyone had ever said to her about breastfeeding.

i find that quite sad cos my comment wasn't exactly ott or anything.

I've just demolished an entire box of chocs reading this thread. Thought I'd finally add my two pennorth.

Perhaps views on this subject could be seen as finding a place along a continuum line. At one end an opinion might be "I'll never breastfeed - can't stomach the idea" - (thinking Jordan), and at the other, "I'll breastfeed for as long as my child wishes, up to age 7 or 8 if that's what she wants" (extraordinary breastfeeding documentary). In some parts of the world eyebrows would certainly be raised at one stance as being extreme, and in other societies the opposite end of the spectrum would elicit the same response.

And in ours, probably it's expected by most, that the conservative middle ground is safe and most acceptable.

Most people could probably find their own comfort level somewhere along this line. But with open discussion, reliable facts and honest information, the benefit of learning from the experiences of others and that of our own, and the humility to maintain an open mind, we may find our own comfort level shifts its position.

And if not, at least we may gain an understanding and empathy with those who choose a different position to our own. And hopefully retain our abilities to appreciate and not denigrate the choices of others.

Speaking purely for myself, I've breastfed my dd for 3 months. I love this time in my life more than any other, and I worry that I may not be able to continue to exclusively feed her this way because of things not running exactly to plan. (another story) So I read the stories of the extended - or should that be full-term? - breastfeeders with admiration. It sounds so lovely. And it takes courage to do something outside of the "norm" in the face of ignorance or prejudice.

I hope I'll be able to count myself amongst your number in due course. Bravo ladies.

Thank you Icarus, will do.

this convo has prob moved on by now but have to say this:

Tori is there nutritional benefits in a cup of tea? Yes, if it has sugar and milk. about 16 cals per tsp of sugar and something in the oz of milk.

is there any nutritional value in say half a small banana?

If an old lady asked for a cuppa, for comfort, would you deny it because it had 'no nutritional value'?

What about denying a 4 or 5 yo a half of a banana? Because it has no nutritional value?

The last time I expressed, about 6 months ago, I got 4 oz of milk. Would I have denied my 2yo (and maybe one day, my 4 yo) that 'little bit' of milk because she wanted it 'for comfort'?

A half a banana, or a half an apple in itself has little nurtritional value to a 5yo with a varied diet. Does that mean you should cut out that bit of fruit because they will happily eat, meat and 2 veg at dinnertime?

I guess you will say 'no' because it is another aspect of a varied diet. So why is a 5 minute feed any different? You really don't know how bf works because at 10 months when my dd was still being exclusively bf, (her need, not mine) she would only feed for 5 mins and was getting all the milk she needed at that one 5 min feed.

I suspect it is different for you because you think that a 5yo prob shouldn't need 'that kind of' comfort and that it is for the mother etc, etc. You don't have the faith in a child to believe that when they do not need bf, they will give it up. Which falls along the lines of a whole host of other things people are under the impression they have to teach children. Most haven't stopped to really reflect that the lasting education in children is in what we do, and not what we say. Sad really.

When a need it met, it goes away. When it is unmet it remains a need well into childhood and even the teenage yrs and adulthood.

Scarylittlecarrot - I totally agree with your post.

I think that if I could pick one real difference that being on mumsnet has made to me then it would be my view on EBF. It's not something I'd really come across in RL but on mumsnet loads of women do it, talk about it and now it seems to me to be a very normal natural thing to do. I'm hoping to BF my ds beyond a year and know that there will be support here if I need it.

It's not that I thought it was abnormal or unnatural before but I had no experience of it, which I think is a refelction on our society and the place of breast feeding with in it. It would be lovely if we could get closer towards the way things are in Scandinavia.

Just wanted to thank HunkOLantern for the baby-led weaning link.

I also agree with Scarylittlecarrot and liath - I am still rather surprised at how much I adore breastfeeding at 4 months - and feel very lucky that this has been my feeding experience so far.

This thread has made me think that as long as dd and I both love feeding in this way (which I very much doubt will be the case when she is 7) why shouldn't we continue? And, that it is no one else's business whether we do (or don't for that matter!) So, thank you for the inspiration.

very well said scarylittlecarrot

Starlight .. also a good post .. have to say that answering with a 'so what' wouldn't have contributed to a discussion that so many people are professing to have found interesting, enlightening, heartwarming (and yes farkin' frustrating, annoying and upsetting too)

Wow, it's difficult to read through so many messages in this new format!

I used to think bfing was something you did for six months and then you had to give follow on milk - so much for the power of advertising.

I actually thought those people on the "extraordinary breastfeeding" programme (which I saw when it was shown the first time around, years ago now) were the only people in the entire UK who fed their babies for longer than a year. Seriously.

I can honstly say I'd never seen anyone bf in public, apart from when I lived in London for a few years. But hey, that's London isn't it. And even then I only saw it once or twice, and only bfing babies.

When I started bfing, I came across a LLL Peer Supporter who told me she had fed her two dcs one for ten months, one for a year. I remember thinking, "goodness me, that's ages, you must know everything about bfing!!"

It was only once I started trawling through the feeding section of MN that I realised that on this site, bfing was the norm rather than the exception, and actually lots of people bf longer than six months, in fact lots of women bf longer than a year!

And I started thinking, "I could do that." And the longer I feed ds, the more I think, "I want to do that. I want to be able to comfort him easily when he's a toddler, to be able to help him work his way through illnesses quickly, to be able to get him to sleep without too much fuss..."

Trouble is, I will have to weather the reactions of all the many people in rl I know who are in the same place I was at the beginning of this post.

I have been thinking about this thread all night - don't worry, it has not been keeping me awake: ds2 has been doing a pretty good job of that being even worse than normal, having croup. All he will have at the moment is iced lollies (home made with fruit juice naturally ) and breast milk.

I am actually glad that you started this thread, Twig. I can see most sides of the discussion (barring a few insulting terms). It has been interesting for me, at least, to discuss and consider why some people (and unfortunately, it is a lot of people, at least where I live) who have such an inbuilt reaction to breast feeding past baby hood.

I honestly don't think it is to do with the fact that people think toddlers don't 'need' it nutritionally. After all, I don't nutritionally need the chocolate brownie that I have polished off. BUt I ate it nonetheless. Scientific studies show that the 'not necessary' breast milk is wa better for my almost 3 year old than sharing his mum's cake.

I don't think it is the 'walking, talking child' thing either. Babies can 'sign' for milk at a really young age. Newborns cry to be fed. That is communicating for milk too.

It is all down to the sexualisation of breasts in our culture IMO. That Jordan can't bring herself to breast feed underlines that in my eyes. Coupled with whole making children older than they are (2 year olds having 'little girlfriends', nudges and winks when my 5 year old holds hands with his 5 year old female friends, 6 year old girls wearing heels and showing their tummies off).

Without people discussing why they feel as they do about breastfeeding children, they will never see the counter argument. I get what other people who breast feed children are saying - that such comments undermine mothers who choose to feed their children. I agree with that too.

But until we try to put into words exactly what the relationship of feeding an older baby/toddler is like, I think that we will always be faced with the amazement/interest/creepy (delete as appropriate comments).

It is wrong that we should have to explain ourselves, but sadly, until more is done at a higher level alongside rational information giving of scientific studies and personal annecdotal experience in real life and on forums such as this, I fear that this will always be the case.

The media has a lot to answer for, IMHO.

BAd spelling, typos and senteces ending mid sentence - poorly boy feeding on my knee pointing out the 'H for Harry' key on my keyboard

I think posycal has said much of what I was also thinking overnight - Twig raised an important point about why people feel so strongly (in a negative way) about extended breastfeeding and it does seem to me the answer lies in the "dual function" nature of breasts (or the fact that we as a society see breasts in that way)- the older the bfing child, the closer it seems to incest taboos. In my rational self I am fully supportive of ebfing but at some level I am also squeamish and it is worth grappling with why that is because perhaps if we all talked about it more we would become less squeamish as a society...

good post popsycal.

no, I agree that it is helpful (in some sense) to debate these issues I agree. It is certainly helpful for me (personally and professionally) to hear people's prejudices and reactions.

I was a bit concerned that this was going to be a bit Daily Mail though, i.e. god isn't bf a toddler revolting doesn't everyone agree? so prejudices get confirmed and validated rather than challenged and reflected upon.

I do think that the kind of negative opinions stated here if they were about almost anything else would be totally unacceptable - and that in itself is interesting.

if someone had started a thread to say - "I find it disgusting when I see babies being bottlefed, I feel sorry for them, I know this is illogical but I just get a visceral reaction to it", and then others came on and said "yes it's revolting and so unnecessary and those women who say they couldn't manage to do it are just lazy and selfish."

well all concerned would get massively flamed. There are people who do hold those opinions, but to air them is unacceptable. but apparently to air those views about bf is acceptable for the purposes of debate and because we have the right to state our opinions.

I think it is interesting that this double standard persists.

oh and I do think much of this change in our culture is to do with the marketing of formula - formula is the norm, it is normal to feed a baby with a bottle and to do anything else is a bit weird but ok for a short while but you must wean as soon as possible.
most popular child care books e.g. What to Expect, Baby Whisperer, Gina Ford make no mention of extended bf at best, and at worst are very very negative about it.
I am currently teaching GCSE Child Development, and the practice exam question says - how long should a woman bf? the official answer is most doctors advise mothers to try and bf for the first two weeks and ideally for six months.

I'm not sure how much if it is to do with formula marketing. I bf two of mine for over a year each and that was perfectly within expectations / norms within my social circles. I nonetheless have to grapple with feelings of squeamishness in relation to 4/5 year-olds - feelinsg I regret - more so after reading this thread - and would like to understand better...

I can't stop thinking about this one either. I have to admit to being a litt uneasy about bf school age children. I realize that it is a wonderful source of comfort, but then so is chocolate. I try to encourage my children not to reward or comfort themselves with food generally. I do wonder whether bf 7 year olds are not being given the opportunity to find other ways to comfort and reassure themselves. I also wonder a little if the mothers of the 7 year old bfeeders are making a bit of a statement. I remember when I first started to feed my first child in public, I was DESPERATE for someone to object so that I could stomp on them. Sadly noone ever did!

I do think that one of the reasons some people don't like bf at any age is that they don't like being reminded how close we are to other animals. I had a particularly bonkers SIL once who used to say they she was suche a sensitive persn, she found going to the loo distessing - so animalistic!

i agree with popsycal (coming to this late, so i apologise for not having read thread)

when our children reach one we are expected to return to our pre-baby selves. PND is only relevant in the first 12m of our baby's life, any depressive episode after that point is classed as depression, whether it is a delayed reaction to the birth or not. we are supposed to go back to our pre-pg bodies, back to work, our sex life is supposed to resume as before, and we are supposed to stop bf-ing. because if this doesnt happen then we are frowned upon, not making an effort, less of a woman. the media shows women like jordan back in her size 6's weeks after giving birth and what it really says is: "look at her, shes had a baby and still got her life back, its exactly the same as it was pre-baby. she has it all, and if you dont do the same then you are a failure"

do you think any of it is a feminist issue, i.e. formula was invented to emancipate women from the drudgery of feeding, our mothers thought themselves lucky to have that sort of freedom, women died so we could have the vote and bfing makes it all in vain, type thing.

my mum is not a fan of bfing, in fact her and her (female) partner have both said they don't particularly like to see it (I hight the word female to point out that I expect my mum to be far more liberal minded, but she clearly isn't). I can't really make out why it bothers her so much, but I'm sure a part of it is that she thinks i am making life more difficult for myself. every time i make the slight complaint about bfing, or sleep she tells me to put dd on formula, insists that it will make my life easier.

also, there is very much the attitude that children should not dictate to their parents (BUB programme and CV being a prime example). Maybe waitng for a child to self wean makes people uncomfortable because they believe parents should be in charge and make the decisions. maybe people against ebfing thing we are giving children too much power.

does anyone else find most of the negative attitudes towards bfing come from women? why might that be?

I also agree with some of the earlier posts that said the people didn't understand until the did it themselves. I always said 6 months and no longer, but now I'm doing it I hope i can carry on for a lot longer. and other posters have said it seemed natural with their own toddlers as they had known them and bfed since they were born, but it seems a bit odd seeing at someone else's toddler doing it. Maybe it's comparable to the feeling I get when my bro' and sis talk about having sex, I know they do it, and it's perfectly normal, they are adults, but I don't want to hear them talking about it coz they're my little bro and sis. I still think of them as being 10 years old!

does any of this make sense? I've been reading this topic for a while and felt like i had to post something but couldn't figure out my feelings on the matter.