So is it just me who has viscerally negative reactions to talk about breastfeeding 4 or 5 year olds

[TwigorTreat]

Now look I know its different strokes for different folks and I am not judging anyone as I know logically that its fine and anyone who does is doing what they deem their very best for their own children.

But I am talking about a experiencing a sense of distaste that I cannot help. I do have a negative and almost physical reaction to the thought of breastfeeding my 3 year old let alone an older child. And I have discussed this before when it came to extending breastfeeding for my own child beyond 6 months and with the discussion was capable of making it past that psychological barrier to 11 months.

Perhaps the thought of having a reasonable discussion over this particular reaction is just a step too far for us on Mumsnet. But I thought I'd give it a go anyway .. what, with it being Saturday and all that.

Anyone who experiences the same sense of negativity will no doubt need to gulp down hard before adding to this discussion. Just as anyone who is on the 'other side of the fence' will need to take copious amounts of oxygen into their system to calm down before posting .. I hope both sides do though... it could be interesting and educational

Oh, yes, you're right and I don't think anyone was suggesting that cuddles stop when bf stops. I certainly wasn't.

Although DS1 came into our bed in the middle of the night recently, cuddled up to me, slept for about an hour, then woke up and asked to go back to his own bed. I asked him why the next morning and he said he'd seen Daddy with no top on and he didn't like it because he was "too hairy"

Twig, I never thought I would still be feeding my 2 and a half year old, may cut off was going to be 12 months, but I am, she still seems like my baby and not at all grown up, she now only has a breastfeed first thing in the morning as I am also feeding my 7 month old, however if it wasn't for him I am sure she would be having more frequent feeds throughout the day, I've no idea when she is going to give up but I know she isn't ready yet and it no longer bothers me so I will just roll with it

I wasn't suggesting that you don't get the cuddles without the ebf either - just that it's a different picture than the image of the 'it's all about the mother' and there's no point type of arguments.

dd2 says "bo, yummy like chocolate"

tiktok's point about malnourishment is a good one.
I know someone involved in a project working with HIV positive mothers in Africa (I forget the country Somalia I think)
major trial comparing the relative benefits of bf/ff for HIV+ mothers
after a year (I think - I have only heard this verbally and not seen anything published)
15% of the bf babies of HIV+ mothers were HIV+
15% of the ff babies of HIV mothers were dead.

i think the reference to dh's of extended bfeeders was a suggestion that we don't have sex because we don't have any sexual urges OR we are fully sexually satisfied by feeding our toddlers. that was how I read it, especially as it was from someone who decided a two year old bf is "creepy" - she clearly thinks bf a toddler is sexual.

anyone here interested in this?

The advice is for HIV + mothers to breast feed in areas where they cannot guarentee clean water and the ability to make up formula in sterile conditions.

In the UK the advice for HIV + mothers is to formula feed from birth

yes there is a risk of HIV being passed through bf
which has to be balanced with the risks of contamination of formula/water and also the protective effects of bf against many types of infection.

are you offering to lend it franny? if so i would love to have a read

just going back to this comment twig:

"And I disagree that there is a fragility in breastfeeding when one gets beyond the early phase .. I can appreciate in the first few weeks and months there is a necessity for huge support. But I think in later stages there is a somewhat militancy about it which indeed can give the impression to those who are 'unable' (psychologically) to get to that stage that they are somehow not as great at this earth-mother lark ... note I said impression ... I think the recipients infer this rather than those who give the impression mean to."

yes I can see how that impression is received.
but I think this thread gives the lie to the idea that extended bf don't need support. the responses are so negative, so critical and so personal that you would have to have a rhino hide to ignore them and not be affected by them. so many of us have developed a rhino hide. we got that way because of the flack we cop.

but those who are less confident just give up. I read examples of that on this thread and v frequently on mn and in real life - people giving up because of other people's rude and ignorant remarks, pressure from friends and family, "looks" when feeding in public, people "joking" about bitty.
it makes people give up.
why this is acceptable when it would not be acceptable to make such comments about bottle feeding I really can't imagine.

Re the 'it's all about the mother' argument. I think there is something in that. There can't be many extended bfeeders who don't enjoy it or get something from it can there? Otherwise they wouldn't do it, they'd stop, they are in the position to call a halt to it all if they wanted to, whereas an infant is less likely to.

Extended bfeeders enjoy feeding their children, and giving them comfort in this way. Lots of women don't, they've had enough after a while and want their 'bodies back' and to give comfort and have intimacy in other ways - these ways are open to all of us, MB is right, it doesn't have to be milk themed.

So there is an element of choice, and that choice is the mother's really, so it is 'all about the mother' and the choices she makes.

I seem to remember reading a very interesting study about the protective effects of bf wrt HIV - but it has to be 100% exclusive bf because any formula or solid food changes the gut environment or something.

I never cease to be amazed at how women's bodies work wrt babies, you know.

100x I see your point, it is certainly partly the mother's choice. and if the mother wants to stop, then she will
but surely the choice to carry on lies with the toddler - the mother can refuse but she can't choose to carry on if the toddler doesn't want to.
re the extended bf I know and speak to (a pretty sizeable sample) it is about recognising and responding to the needs of the toddler. in lots of cases (most cases I would say), the mother finds it, at least sometimes, a bit of a pain/draining/exhausting/tying/all a bit much

I don't want my body back. I want somebody else's back, preferably an athletic 22yo.

100x, children can and do stop the bf relationship. DS1 did when he was 17mo, quite decisively.

I don't do it "for me" - I don't mind doing it, I quite enjoy it, but that's different from doing it "for me". I do it because I know DS2 clearly adores bf. Much the same as I give DS1 twiglets on occasion

I don't give DS2 twiglets "for me" I mean - so there's a difference.

the biggest single advantage of BF while HIV+ is the avoidance if gastointestinal infection, which kills so many children in developing countries. That kills more children that HIV.

That risk is minimal in the west, and so HIV+ mothers are told to formula feed.

the risk of passing HIV in breast milk is significant, but in some countries that risk is outweighed by others.

honestly, if you have never done it, you will just have to take our word for it:
the toddler decides! you can limit it, or you can stop it, or you can apply rules but if he doesn't want to bf he just won't

yeah mb that's what I was trying to say, quite badly.

100 I think the inference with the "it's all about the mother" statement is that it is ONLY the mother who is benefitting or deciding to continue. Which is laughable, really.

I do know one ebf who doesn't enjoy it. I expect there are more. But yes, in general I would say most ebf do enjoy breastfeeding. We are ohysically designed to enjoy it, in general - that is the idea, although I know it doesn't work for everyone.

I would say that I am comfortable with it, I don't have problems with the animalistic elements but sometimes I find the constant physical demands a bit overwhelming

But the all about the mother argument is said in a way that insinuates that it isn't in the interest of the child and that it's not something the child really wants or needs, just some needy weirdness of the mother.

As i said in my post, yes, of course i get pleasure and comfort from my child being relaxed and comforted - just as i do from cuddling or making a nice meal that she actually eats. But self weaning is about letting the child wean when she's ready - I don't offer her milk and don't refuse if i'm in a position to feed.

Overall looking back on nearly 4 years I have enjoyed it immensely. Ah, hindsight

there have been times when I have felt like I would rather chew off my own elbow than give yet another fucking breastfeed. it's true

ironically it got more and more enjoyable and less and less onerous until ds decided to stop. If he had stopped suddenly during one of his manic breastathons I probably would have jumped for joy

The "it's all about the mother" is often said with a "you sick pervert" undertone. That's my issue with it. Well, that and it's Not True, not in the way it's meant.

Franny, I know that feeling. The "Oh ffs, you cannot cannot cannot simply cannot need more milk from me, I will be positively dessicated by the time you've finished with me, you little blighter" one...

I used to think there'd be a dried up Hunker-husk on the sofa one day.

LOL yes dp used to say "oh dear has he husked you again?"

oh god the CAKE I could eat in those days

I know a fair few women online who have found their EBF relationship quite difficult on occasion and have wanted to stop but haven't because it meant so much to their DC.