Why do some people feel that they must breastfeed at any cost?

[Moomin8]

I’ve got plenty of experience of both types of feeding - I breastfed two of my children until 2 years. They were great feeders - I had no problems.

My other two children for various reasons ended up having formula. One was 3 weeks early, severely jaundiced and my milk was slower to come in than it should. I didn’t want her going into hospital for uv therapy. The other couldn’t feed well and was eventually diagnosed with dyspraxia, later. She would get tired and not take enough bm.

Now, I see this lady on Instagram who has a 6 week old baby who weighs only 7 pounds and he was born at term weighing 6 pounds. He clearly is not thriving. Every time I see a picture of him I cringe. And his mother is about my age (40) and this is baby #6 for her.

I would be the first to say that breast IS best. But only if the child is thriving surely?

How can a baby make the necessary brain development in those early weeks if they aren’t picking up weight?

I know that society makes women feel like formula is evil. But sometimes I think it’s better than breastfeeding when the baby isn’t thriving.

But @Wolfgirrl all the glossy instamums and magazine spreads is totally different from a la leche league Facebook group - you’re lumping them in together as though they are the same thing. The former might well make people think bf is something they should do, but it won’t help them actually do it. You’ve already said some sensible stuff about what people need to help them learn to breastfeed so you must know this.

Most of what gets put on Instagram is the opposite of “education” in reality - it’s showing an idealised picture of something. Im sure those images are harmful. That means that we need better education and better support for women about the actual reality of it, not less.

Where I live there are bf support groups every day of the week. There is a support line for out of hours chat and assistance, a local FB group for boob support etc. Every kind of support is widely available. Women can (as long as the unit isn't full) stay in hospital longer if they want help with feeding. On top of that, there are books, websites, even if you don't have any friends or family to ask. We aren't children - if we need help we are perfectly able to look for it/ask for it ourselves, even if it wasn't readily available. Support is out there. Oodles of it.

In contrast there is nothing if you formula feed. All there is, is exclusion that you can't get the same support as if you fed from your boobs. No groups, they won't even talk about it in NCT classes (but have a specific bf session), no bottle consultants, bottle groups, no hotline with people to ask their questions. No one helps you in hospital. And don't say that it's because FF women don't need support. I've done both, and my support needs were similar for both. For both there were times I could have done with someone for help. With Bf I was spoilt for choice, with bottles I did my own research on the internet as there was no one to ask.

All the support in the world can't make your baby magically put on weight, and it can't give you a break when baby wants feeding for the 10th time that night.

I find it laughable when people say there isn't enough support for bf mums. There is no other aspect of parenting that is so supported.

God the breast feeding 'booby milk' mothers are an annoying bunch. A child growing and thriving is no more amazing because you breastfed them or formula fed. Having a child and loving them is what's amazing, not the obsession with your bloody breasts.

@Babyboomtastic great you’ve got resources in your local area. A quick google will show you it’s patchy around the UK. I’ve already posted about my sister’s experience on this thread. Austerity has had a massive impact on what’s available. Not sure why anyone has an issue with people saying that support for women who want to bf could be better tbh. It doesn’t mean ff shouldn’t also have help.

@Wolfgirrl you’re saying all the same stuff you said yesterday. Do you want to compare the UK to Rwanda again as well?

@HarrietM87

What support though? It's such an overused term on this website yet nobody says what it actually entails. What would you do if it was up to you to revolutionise breastfeeding on a reasonable budget?

@HarrietM87 I was only comparing to Rwanda as the breastfeeding brigade bang on about high uptake in other countries, and blame low rates here on not having generations of your own family to show you how.

@Wolfgirrl I actually answered that question when you asked it yesterday. You then basically agreed with me.

The main thing that’s needed in my opinion is the ability to see a person, preferably in the days following birth, who is adequately trained and can show you physically what to do. The best place for this would be the hospital or community midwives who come to your house. It’s hard to expect women who have just given birth to travel. No amount of books/fb groups/you tube videos can substitute for someone looking at your boobs and your baby. Of course midwives are supposed to do it but most aren’t properly trained and don’t have time.

@Wolfgirrl yes but the other countries to look
at are ones that are actually similar to the UK economically and socio-culturally (ie Europe and the US) which DO have much higher rates despite not having the same family networks.

Harriet, what support do you want though, because often it's more a cry for help rather than three being anything anyone can actually do. Even if you had a lactation consultant move in for 6 weeks the woman still has to physically do it...

And yes, help may be patchy, but at least that means there are parts with good coverage. Nowhere has support for bottle feeding parents.

@Babyboomtastic I’ve just said what I think would be good. Patchy service isn’t good enough if you’re one of the people who can’t access it. You’re great at making sweeping statements without backing them up. As it happens, my local area has a support group for all mothers and they run sessions specially for formula feeding.

@harrietm87

That is what happens already! The only thing that I could think of that could be added to this massively OTT area of parenting is that the hospital stay should be longer to enable milk to come in. If after a few days to a week after the baby still isnt feeding correctly, it should be bottle time. Not go home and sit and wait for the weekly breastfeeding group whilst baby screams in hunger.

In my opinions 'support' like this might be doing more harm than good by encouraging mums to stretch out the 'struggling' phase for as long as possible.

@HarrietM87 I feel that there is lots of support for BF women. I feel that not many areas in the UK neglect this at all.

I do however feel that BF women want support 24/7 until it eases. As others have said this could be 6 weeks. Where would the funding from this come from? It's not like FF mums get ANY support so no budget being spent there.

There should be equal access to support for both BF and FF mums. Including midwives it HV showing how to safely make a bottle, information on storage or why you shouldn't store etc. None of that is made available. And when FF mums ask they get responses such as - well you can read can't you - can you imagine if someone said that to a BF mum!

@Wolfgirrl I think that’s what the aim is, but it doesn’t happen in reality for a lot of women. The milk not having come in by the time most people leave is a major issue.

If you’re concerned that weekly bf groups are detrimental to babies’ health because women have to wait for a week to access them, then surely the solution is more frequent bf groups then scrapping them altogether?

There are midwives in the hospital Overstretched ones who rarely have time to help with basic post-natal care let alone bf support

Breastfeeding clubs with advisors (free) almost everywhere. Books you can read. Online forums such as this offering advice. La Leche League and other breastfeeding support companies. Health visitors you can get in touch with at any time. Peer supporters. All free services accessible to anyone

I've never heard of anyone getting good advice from a HV on this. FB and phone support might be some good but hardly the same as someone actually there with you to help you latch.

There should be dedicated bf experts/supporters on every post natal ward to help in the first days. I said before that the large London teaching hospital I had my DC in had to cancel that service. I assume that many other hospitals have to do the same.

The friends I have who have had trouble and needed one-to-one help to get issues sorted have had to pay a couple of hundred pounds for the pleasure

@twinkleprincess it’s great that you “feel” there’s loads of support for bf mums. I suspect you’ve never sought it out in a moment of desperation. Not sure where you’ve got 6 weeks from. I think it’s week 1 where help is needed.

I am preparing to be flamed here but I think it’s harder to breastfeed at the beginning than it is to make up a bottle safely, for numerous reasons, and so I think that while ff mums should of course be able to access advice (and you know I feel that there is plenty of support available online) I’m not sure that you do need someone to show you in person in the same way. You can also get help from your partner and other people whereas with bf it has to be the mum, who may be exhausted from having given birth and generally feeling vulnerable, so it’s a different kind of pressure.

I think it’s week 1 where help is needed

I agree. And midwives and HVs just don't have the time to spend with new mothers in hospital or on those first home visits to help. That's where the support needs to be first of all - to get it started.

I have birth at an enormous very busy hospital. There was plenty of help 24/7 with breastfeeding. Women that complain were probably happy to be discharged after 6 hours then wondered why they hadn't mastered it, or the help they were given didn't work for them so they go down the road of 'I was given no proper help'. I dont doubt the odd bad experience but given the breast is best drive the NHS have been pushing for years, i cant imagine it is anything other than a tiny minority.

As for having more breastfeeding support groups what do you suggest? 3 groups a week a maximum of 1 mile away from every mother? who pays for it all? There wouldn't be anywhere near enough staff.

What you are advocating is a disproportionately OTT and costly solution to a relatively minor problem. Breastfeeding is not SO essential to a baby's health that it warrants such an enormous wealth of resources.

The money IMO would be better spent on widening newborn blood tests as at present we only test for a small number of conditions compared to other countries. This means genuinely sick babies slipping through the net.

@HarrietM87 there are 24/7 helplines all over google that say they are national, there are support groups, there are dedicated experts (like any expert you expect to have to wait) etc.

Have you read the back of a formula tin?

When DS was born I was told to follow the instructions. Nothing more given. It said he should be feeding x amount of formula over x amount of feeds. DS refused to take that much. I panicked, DP panicked, we didn't know what to do. When I called the hospital I was told just do what you think is right, follow the instructions. The instructions are not helpful and not clear. Feed on demand but don't exceed this much per day etc.

All new mums need support, all new mums should be given information as to how to prepare their chosen feed. All mums should have the opportunity to receive 24/7 help whether they are getting their boobs out or not.

Being a new mum is hard. Some people need more support than others, some people don't have a clue what they are doing and struggle with the notion of just follow the instructions. Just because someone has chosen to use their boobs doesn't mean they have it harder and doesn't mean they should receive more support.

The women with the 7lb baby could have other issues? If she's on baby number 6 then she shouldn't struggle to feed.

I suspect that what is happening is that, for whatever reason this baby isn’t managing to get enough milk out. It’s probably not her milk supply. My supply was fine but feeding still didn’t work out for 2 of my four kids because there was no way I was going to spend all day expressing instead of with them.

If she were to supplement with formula, it could help the baby get the energy he needs to work harder at the breast. And then she could end up exclusively bf again.

@Wolfgirrl I also gave birth at an enormous busy hospital...there was no one to help with bf. There was someone who came in on Mondays and Thursdays apparently, but I gave birth on Friday and was discharged on Saturday. I had no choice as to when I was discharged btw...they don’t just let you stay in because you want to.

What I am advocating is that they implement the service they are supposed to, but properly instead of the half arsed way it is done at present. Not sure why this is going to be “costly” and an “enormous wealth of resources”. The NHS funds lots of things which reflect patient choice. In the case of bf the NHS policy is that at a population level it will save them money by promoting it (otherwise why bother) so it’s an investment.

I have birth at an enormous very busy hospital. There was plenty of help 24/7 with breastfeeding. Women that complain were probably happy to be discharged after 6 hours then wondered why they hadn't mastered it
You are lucky. I was lucky too that in my hospital at the time there was good support from a dedicated team and I used them every 3 hours for 24 hours. 2 years later they were not there anymore. Fortunately I didn't need them the second time.

SIL got no support. She asked and asked but no midwives were free. She missed the opportunity to get her son to latch as there was nobody there to show her how and she was reluctantly bottle feeding when she left hospital on day 2.

It isn't a huge ongoing network needed. It's that early help that you were lucky to have but many many others weren't.

Harriet, having done both, I actually found bf to be easier at the start - I had many more questions and issues with getting formula feeding right. Breastfeeding was just a matter of putting baby to boob, her feeding, repeat, whereas FF required some thought and planning, as well as some technical issues. Now I accept I'm lucky and for many it's not a case of lift shirt and shove baby on boob, but I'm not saying that either are easy, but that experiences differ and some FF mums need support too - and it's vanishingly rare that it's available.

When I was FF, I had quite a lot of friends asking me for help with FF because they needed to start doing it and the help wasn't available. Not to mention the need for emotional support for many, as society often makes mums who FF feel as if they have failed.

@twinkleprincess yes I have read the back of the formula tub and I thought it was pretty straightforward actually. But my son was older. When you’ve just had a baby even simple things seem overwhelming though I appreciate. Not really sure what your point is though.

@Babyboomtastic “society” makes ff mums feel bad, when the vast majority of people in the UK both were fed formula themselves and choose to ff their own children. It’s weird isn’t it.

@HarrietM87 that it isn't as straight forward as that. You've just admitted about being overwhelmed after birth etc so why shouldn't FF mums get support in those first 24 hours? Not to mention the disclaimer at the bottom that making it up wrong can cause your baby to become seriously ill...

All mums need help. Not just boob mums but bottle mums as well.