Gather round all pro-bfeeding anti-formula MNers I have a question..........................................

[Malaleche]

Shouldnt there be a be-all and end-all bible of breastfeeding info, experiences and statistics etc which every woman should be given at the first pregnancy check-up and MADE to read (yes, I know, maybe we could be examined on it and !) , which has been written by the WHO and breastfeeding experts and which could be the final and last word on bfeeding(...until new evidence means a new edition has to be brought out.....)

I just dont understand why there has to be so much conflicting advice out there and why some women are still so woefully ignorant about bfeeding at the end of the day....

I also agree absolutely that formula should be avaliable only on prescription but before that happens there needs to be a lot more education and (24 hr)support avaliable or there would be a lot of hungry babies and suffering mothers out there....and why don't govs give 9 months maternity leave on full pay if the WHO recommends 6 months exclusive bfeeding (am adding 3 months for establishing weaning)?

Yes, DH came to the birth. The midwife allows your other kids to be there too if you like (great, for not having to rely on an EMIL, I should imagine).
There are weird things going on in some hospitals I agree, like separating mum and baby and the rest of it. But the strangest thing for me is that the system here allows you to choose your hospital. SO why on earth some people would choose a hospital that separates mum and babe is beyond me. But the Japanese are very much taken in by things like "famous doctor", "luxurious food", "5 star accomodation", and they don`t really ask about the basics, like can your DH come to the birth

I donT want to give too much identity away, but Im in Kyushu.

Couldn't agree more JulesFrenchie... I had all kinds of trouble when trying to get bfing established with DS and I felt really let down by all the official information I was given which failed to properly address all the different sorts of challenges that would be out there... we did get things working eventually and now at 4 months I am very glad that I persevered, but I think a lot of people pack it in early on because they run into problems and don't realise that most things can be overcome with a bit of time. Bfing is lovely and I do enjoy the closeness with DS and knowing it's doing the best for him, but it's also tiring, both physically and emotionally, it needs support from partners and a certain amount of nerve to just pop up your top in public and some days you just don't want to sit with someone chewing on your breast for yet another hour. No-one ever mentioned growth spurts of evening cluster feeding till I was in the middle of it. You have to prepare people for all that, and let them know it's OK to find it hard sometimes, but it is worth it... me & DP both had flu, and DS got nothing, he's not been ill with anything and is a contented happy boy who sleeps soundly for 9 hours a night... I put that down to breastmilk.

I think official advice given is too much "one size fits all" as well I have only managed to establish and maintain successful bfing by breaking most of the rules I have been given. We have never got the hang of the offically recommended feeding position although I can feed him in a sling, lying down in bed, rugby ball, even in the bath etc etc! I had to mix feed at the start and DS stil gets the occasional bottle of EBM or formula to let me have a break. I don't offer both breasts if he doesn't want more and I do feed him to sleep at night

Truth is that it takes perseverance to have successful bfing and everyone has to find what works best for them if it's going to last, and being honest about what's ahead would better prepare people and might lead to more people sticking with it, and to fewer people feeling guilty if they decide not tobased on realistic information.

Sorry for the long post but I feel strongly about this. I was very keen to bf and I felt enormously let down by the offical info I was given which gave me so little help to prepare myself or to support me when there were problems. TBH MN was much the best place for information and reassurance.

Just want to say my HV was also v kind, helpful and knowledgeable, but she's not there at 3am when you need someone to say that feeding 5 times in one evening isn't that odd and you're not running out of milk or starving your baby.

Sakura, statistically BF babies are also more likely to have middle class / educated parents, live in better quality environments etc etc so I still have my doubts over the true underlying measurable benefits of BF vs FF.

Until relatively similar comparisons showed that BF babies had higher intelligence levels, indeed our NCT antenatal group tutor went on about this fact in respect of her own children, at length. It has since been attributed to the middle class predominance in the breastfeeding mothers statistics and is no longer true but the myth hasn't died yet amongst midwives and Health visitors.

For me, despite immersing myself in breastfeeding research findings etc when pregnant with ds1, the jury is still out on the measurable benefits thing.

that should read....

Until relatively recently

Grrrr....I agree that the best studies control for socio-economic factors in the family, and there are many, many that do. You might even say that any study which does not control for these factors - and others - is of poor value.

One recent study here is a very recent, UK study which controls for many factors and which still finds that hospitalisation for 2 common conditions is much greater for formula fed babies.

Hospitalisation is not normally a life-threatening event in the UK but it is upsetting and distressing, and disruptive for the whole family.

If mothers breastfeed, they increase their chances of avoiding the experience.

Jury still out? No - it returned its verdict a long time ago and contiues to do so

Of course the jury isn't still out. No one disputes breast is best. Obviously in some cases it's not possible - am I right that silicone breast implants with repositioned nipples preclude it for example and if them other would kill herself if she continued to breastfeed, or is taking drugs that get through to the milk etc etc but it's a better food. I don't even think there is any conflicting advice. Everyone speaks as one that breast is best.

According to Grrrrr, the evidence is poor, Xenia. Tha's why I cited that paper.

The facts are that breastmilk provides antibodies, and formula doesn`t. This means if baby gets sick, or if the mother gets sick, antibodies are passed to the baby so babe can fight the infection.
Formula companies know that formula will never be able to do this because the mother produces the antibodies for the specific virus that the baby has caught.

Can I ask what "prebiotics" is by the way? I saw it on a tin of formula. It sounds to me like a dodgy marketing term to make it sound like formula has some capacity for fighting illnesses, which it doesn`t.

A bit like "collagen" or "enzymes" or "lipids" or the other "scientific" terms that are used to convince women that the creams and potions that they smear on their faces will change what happens in the lower layers of the epidermis and make them look younger, which they can`t.

Its just that comments that Ive seen on this thread show that indeed there <span class="italic">is</span> a point to the thread: mothers, even on mumsnet, just donT know the facts about breastmilk. Some are even downplaying the benefits, saying its not as good as all that...
Look, formula is a fantastic idea as a back up.
WHat is disgusting though, is the way the formula corporations aggressively market to women. They try the hard sell in developing countries and babies have and are dying because of them. They use the soft sell in developed countries i.e sponsoring midwives conferences and giving misinformation. They buy equipment for hospitals and sponsor them <span class="italic">on</span> <span class="italic">the</span> <span class="italic">premise</span> that the hospitals push formula onto new mothers. That means they <span class="italic">try</span> to actively f*ck up the womans breastfeeding (like in Japan where my friend got a telling off for only putting Bs on her sheet, and for not giving her baby formula (M for Milk)
Lets be clear here, this is what the breastfeeding "fanatics" are upset about. Not women who couldnT breastfeed or women who were happier not breastfeeding etc etc. The fact that formula companies are actively <span class="italic">sabotaging</span> breastfeeding mothers, because that is how they make <span class="italic">money</span>. The bottom line. Who cares if babies die? The bottom line (profit) is all that counts. So anyone who tells me Im not supporting mothers choice because I dont support formula are wrong. I don`T support what nestle and other corporations are doing in the name of profit, and that its allowed to happen.

excellent post Sakura

probiotics are living cells, which are in breastmilk.

prebiotics are nondigestible food ingredients which may benefit the host

this is how i understand it:

probiotics are living cells, including bacteria, which are in breastmilk and which, in the case of those in breastmilk survive the digestive tract to be beneficial to a host.

prebiotics are nondigestible food ingredients which may benefit the host if it escapes damage in the harsh environment of the upper digestive tract and reaches the lower digestive tract. They may promote the growth of helpful bacteria which are already present there.

breastmilk has both. formula has lab engineered prebiotics only and i don't think there is any independent research to say how effective their prebiotic ingredients are to babies.

so, the terms prebiotics and probiotics, so easily mixed up by the average person, plays nicely into the lie that formula is 'closer than ever to breastmilk'.

found this article interesting

I think it's been clear probably from even before the early 1960s when my mother was in the NCT that breast is best but the point about being a parent is it is a constant compromise. We are never best and probably shouldn't even aspire for some kind of perfection therefore if you can't or don't want to breastfeed that's not akin to burning and maiming your child or abusing them but it's probably akin to other things most people do which aren't perfect like giving them chips to eat in due course or shouting at them etc. It's not something for people to get themselves upset over if they can't breastfeed and they do and that's very sad. I was particularly pleased my sister in law who tried and stopped with the first managed terribly well with the second after hiring an expert.

I said that for me, the jury is still out on the measurements issue.

I believe parents have to decide for themselves.

We have a variety of allergy issues in our family and I can see lots of first hand experience of how strong the genetic link is and how the allergies will prevail despite breastfeeding. I have stated my underlying doubts over measuring how severe a particular baby's allergies might have been if they had not been breastfed or how less severe they might have been if they had been breastfed but I'm not disputing the fact that there are other illnesses for which formula fed babies are hospitalised in greater numbers than breastfed babies. I also have seared into my brain the phrase quoted as stated by a midwife somewhere in the UK that she'd rather see babies re-admitted to hospital for emergency treatment for dehydration or failure to thrive as a result of parents persisting with breastfeeding, than see babies being fed formula milk, so its clear that some babies are admitted to hospital for breastfeeding related problems too. We know that crash dieting is bad for the body, is there research being done as to the long-term effect of starvation and dehydration in a baby's earliest days ? That's a rhetorical question by the way, its just to show you the thoughts that go round in my head when I am put down as wrong for simply deciding that although breastfeeding is best for a baby, it is perhaps overhyped by midwives and health visitors in their enthusiasm for getting the message across and improving the proportion of mothers breastfeeding until 6 months.

I'm aware that the intelligence link was scientifically discredited once the socio-economic factors were taken into account but I find that many people have not been updated on this matter, including a local health visitor.

I personally just think that instead of trying to brand formula feeding mothers as being ignorant of the facts, as if just a bit more of the right information and statistics would have made them decide to breastfeed instead, the overstretched resources should be concentrated on those wanting to breastfeed/likely to breastfeed so that they are less likely to end up giving up early or with unhappy memories or issues from their care and support.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm pro-breastfeeding and I'm bold enough to challenge anyone making life unpleasant/difficult for a breastfeedig mum in a restaurant or shop or on public transport. It should be illegal to harrass anyone breastfeeding in public and I can't believe we don't have this enshrined in law in this country yet. I didn't want breastfeed my children and its not because I'm "woefully ignorant" of a lot the facts surrounding the benefits of breastfeeding, I did masses of research into the matter and I still found that I just didn't want to do it, its not compatible with me or my life.

seeing as I am pro-bfeeding (still feeding a 2 yr old) and had to feed my first child on formula, I couldn't possibly comment on this lovely bigoted thread title

I really do object to the bloody demonisation of women who have to use formula though

unless you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes, ladies, just pipe down

The OP has apologised more than once for her error in the title, and has tried to get the thread deleted to no avail.

Grrr....sorry, I still don't understad why for you the jury is out on the measurements issue. The measurements issue (by which I think you mean 'exactly what effects does formula feeding have and can we measure it over a population?) is pretty solid on a number of levels. Allergies is one where it is not clear-cut. Intelligence is another, but there are many studies showing a difference in IQ points, when confounding variables are taken into account, and the most recent study does not in itself overturn them. Trouble is, measuring IQ is culture-specific in itself, and not all studies measure the same thing. There are a number of studies which look at cognitive functioning, but even they are rooted in culture. Other minefields are the age of the babies in the study - you might find a difference at nine months, but if this difference is ironed out at 18 months, or made greater, you won't know unless you follow a whole cohort.

Babies who are re-admitted to hospital for dehydration are not re-admitted because they are breastfeeding. They are readmitted because the breastfeeding is not working well, often because mothers are left unsupported or told they are doing fine when they are not. Readmission is rare, even so.

I agree with you - as do many on this thread - that promoting breastfeeding is pointless and expensive, when mothers actually need supprt and information more.

Tiktok, allergies is the factor that matters most to me given our family history. It is the one reason why I initially researched breastfeeding so intensively when I was first pregnant, knowing that I really didn't want to do it but that if the evidence was overwhelming I'd simply have to as I wouldn't want my children to have to experience some of the childhhood drawbacks of some allergic illnesses.

Despite using formula milk, my children have seem to have got away with it so far but there's nothing to stop them developing allergies later in life. (I developed one allergy after leaving home and no longer being regularly exposed to the irritant in question). There is so much as yet undiscovered about allergies including eczema/asthma/hayfever that I found the certainty with which a midwife told me there is a higher chance of any child of mine having such allergies as part of her " so you really must breastfeed" discussion surprising.

One of my SILs breastfed all of hers and they have an assortment of allergy illnesses. She admits she feels cheated but my her dh does have worse allergies than me. From my experience the genetic link was being used to promote breastfeeding as a possible preventative not to prepare parents for the fact that it is highly likely that their children may develop asthma/eczema/hayfever and breastfeeding may have a small effect in lessening the severity of the allergy symptoms. I am a fairly educated questioning individual and I firmy believe, at this point in time, that my children have benefited from my dh having a minimal/negligible family history of allergies (other horrible illnesses maybe but no allergies to speak off).

Anyhow, my post re allergies was sparked by a particularly uninformed poster blaming her friend's children's skin problems firmly on her not bothering to breastfeed them. She has not posted to defend her point of view so I'm hoping that she has read further and learned more about the whole matter just as I continue to do.

btw has anyone seen the new aptamil formula milk packaging with a very upfront slogan "inspired by breastmilk" ?

I'm not sure what I think yet as I'm still pondering over their choice of words.

Grrr, why are you making this about women who couldnt/didnt breastfeed? That is not the main issue here. The issue is the hard-sell techniques of the companies and the sabotaging of breastfeeding mothers in developed and developing societies. Formula companies are not in this business in order to "help" women who couldn`t breastfeed, and I guarantee that if by chance tomorrow, there was suddenly no huge profit to be made from formula, the corporations would pack up quicker than you could blink.

ummm,..... because the OP wants formula to be available only on prescription and I kind of think that as a formula milk user I have an opinion on that matter, as does any parent who couldn't/didn't breastfeed. Even titok doesn't agree with that taking that dictatorial hardline stance against the sue of formula milk.

......because the OP wants women to be made to read a breastfeeding bible. Well, if you're pro breastfeeding that's superfluous, apart from the practical handy helps and hints section which I hope would be included therein, so that suggestion is aimed at trying to "convert" those making the choice to use formula milk.

....because voldie thinks her friend has caused her children's bad skin by using formula milk.

I do however agree with the OP about the need for 24 hour breastfeeding support being available and so I'm saying concentrate the resources on those who want to breastfeed instead of making life more difficult for those who can't/don't want to.

Sakura - My last post sounds a bit sarcastic, it's not meant to be , just answering your question that's all