Gather round all pro-bfeeding anti-formula MNers I have a question..........................................

[Malaleche]

Shouldnt there be a be-all and end-all bible of breastfeeding info, experiences and statistics etc which every woman should be given at the first pregnancy check-up and MADE to read (yes, I know, maybe we could be examined on it and !) , which has been written by the WHO and breastfeeding experts and which could be the final and last word on bfeeding(...until new evidence means a new edition has to be brought out.....)

I just dont understand why there has to be so much conflicting advice out there and why some women are still so woefully ignorant about bfeeding at the end of the day....

I also agree absolutely that formula should be avaliable only on prescription but before that happens there needs to be a lot more education and (24 hr)support avaliable or there would be a lot of hungry babies and suffering mothers out there....and why don't govs give 9 months maternity leave on full pay if the WHO recommends 6 months exclusive bfeeding (am adding 3 months for establishing weaning)?

ah but aitch it wouldnt be a mere leaflet my bfeeding bible it would be a mighty tome (well, not too mighty or no-one would read it) with a whole chapter on tongue-tie...

In Japan as far as I can tell, if you formula feed, its kind of understood that you MUST have had problems breastfeeding, and there was probably some problem. Breastfeeding mothers dont look down on formula feeders because I would say that <span class="italic">all</span> women here are clued up about breastfeeding. I havent seen an obvious economic division either between breastfeeders and non-breastfeeders, like there is in the UK.
So in this kind of environment, its much less of an issue. People openly ask you (old ladies, supermarket staff, other mothers, any old so and so) if youre breastfeeding. I was taken aback at first, knowing that the question would be kind of offensive if asked in the UK, but here its genuine curiosity. So this tells me that women who feed formula <span class="italic">dont feel inadequate, otherwise it wouldn`t be okay to ask the question IYSWIM.
So what I want to say is that in an environment that openly supports women and breastfeeding, both formula and breastfeeding mothers feel more comfortable with themselves. I can almost guarantee that the same debate is not going on in another Japanese web community.

i think having formula on prescription only is a stupid idea tbh. i was left with a 3 day old screaming baby who had barely fed since birth. i was at the end of my tether and my mum went out to the 24 hour tesco and got me a tin of milk. if i hadnt been able to get this in the middle of the night i don't know what i would have done.

i am pro-choice rather than pro-breastfeeding. i think there needs to be more help and info out there for mothers who want to breastfeed successfully, but i also think for mothers who just don't enjoy that experience and don't want to be the only ones who can feed their baby or have to express all the time should be able to freely use formula.

ok am probably taking this off at a tangent but I DO have problems with peer support. I have done some with 2 different organisations. The problem both times was inadequate training and inadequate support from health professionals.

the trouble is that a LOT of myths got peddled. I could list them but...believe me they DO. And because it is an official NHS,, or NCT, or whatever group there is a perception that the peer supporters know what they are talking about.

ANOTHER problem is that, involved in this, are some women passionate about bfding but not so good on the empathy.

Peer support can be good but peer supporter leaders DO need training and there needs to be standards and support.

Nappyaddict: "mothers who just don't enjoy [breastfeeding] and don't want to be the only ones who can feed their baby or have to express all the time should freely be able to use formula". Yes, and they should also take some responsibility when their babies are hospitalised for gastro or respiratory problems, which as Tiktok has pointed out, is far more likely with formula.

However, in the case of a mother trying and not managing to breastfeed, of course it's not her fault. But some women do go to heroic lengths to breastfeed their infants, and some either don't believe or understand the benefits, so put their own short term convenience at a higher priority.

It's a pity we do not have better organised milk banks so that more babies can be supplemented with human milk. I would have been glad to donate far more milk than I did, if it had been made easier for me to do so.

"Yes, and they should also take some responsibility when their babies are hospitalised for gastro or respiratory problems"

yes, yes fine as long as parents also take responsibility when their children become obese from being fed junk food, or get sick from living with smokers et-cet-e-ra, et-cet-e-ra

FGS!

but some of those mothers mix feed and expressing takes an awful long time. why should women who want to do both be penalised?

and some mothers really do not enjoy breastfeeding. why should they be made to breastfeed and potentially damage the bond with their child doing something they do not enjoy?

Yes, a certain amount of responsibility for those things too, Jools. And I am not talking total responsibility as life is full of many circumstances.

EXACTLY.

You can be a breastfeeder and smoke like a chimney I'll warrant that would damage a little respitory tract!

oh lord!
respiratory

Oh FGS, no one wants to 'penalise' mothers for doing anything....where do you see anyone arguing for 'penalising' women for formula feeding or mixed feeding on this thread, nappyaddict? 'Penalising' means making someone pay a penalty - where is that happening?

Elasticwoman - I think what you mean is that anyone who makes a decision to use formula has to be aware that this may have consequences. I don't like the idea that women should 'take responsibility' as decisions to use formula may be complex and unavoidable, and it sounds finger-waggingly judgemental to say they must take 'responsibility'

Being aware it may have consqeuences means being able to weigh these consequences in the equation, alongside other factors which may have consequences eg not going back to work at all may have financial consequences; having another sleepless night may have emotional/mental consequences. And so on.

Tiktok - arguably we formula-feeder ARE being penalised by having to pay £6 or £7 a tin to feed our babies?? That's a fair old penalty in my book (I know that's not what you meant btw, but still...)

Elasticwoman - just to point out, as I'm sure you know, that some women also go to heroic lengths to breastfed their babies and still have to give up - for their own sanity and their baby's wellbeing, and certainly not for their own short term convenience.

What about formula being available over the counter? What do people think about that? There is always supposed to be a 24 hour chemist in an area isn't there?

again, i do agree with you twinkle. i certainly felt like having to pay so much for formula was a right slap in that face. but i suppose that's what tiktok is arguing for, really, when she says she wants cheap, unbranded formula.

LOL, not like any of this will ever happen. can't see a govt prepared to take on Nestle et al.

Oh yes, Twinklemegan, I do appreciate that outside factors can confound a mother's best efforts and have every sympathy with you and other mothers who gave it their best shot. But nappy addict was talking about choosing ff as a consumer choice when not absolutely forced to do so.

Yes Tiktok, I know I sound judgmental and I should get the beam out of my own eye, perhaps. In mitigation may I say I'm only making a general point, not judging any individual. Just saying that for a mother to put her own convenience (if that's what she's doing) above her child's best interests would be wrong; but it raises the question of what a child's best interests are.

As for smoking and bf: another myth. Babies are better off bf if the mother smokes, even though it's not an ideal situation. At least they still get the antibodies against infection.

Ah Yes, JoolsToo, the image of a very dear friend breastfeeding her baby whilst smoking remains imprinted on my brain.

When I became pregnant about a year latert we discussed breastfeeding and she was curious about my not wanting to do it given my "professional" status (her way of saying that compared to her I appear middle class although I would dispute the diagnosis). The bizarre situation of taking advantage of a daytime sit down (in order to breastfeed) to have a cigarette (or 2 or 3) each time within a foot of her baby's lungs was never discussed. I mean, where would I start ?

Yep - cheap, unbranded infant formula, with free stuff on prescription if someone has a baby who can't take the normal types (because of serious allergy or illness, because of being pre-term), and available with full instructions, easily followed, on preparation.

There will always be people who want to pay more for a pretty package, I suppose, or a clever name - just like people want to pay for branded pharmaceuticals when the exact same ingredients can be bought for a quarter of the price in generic form - and I don't suppose this could be stopped. But they would need to obey the WHO marketing code on promotion. This might be enough in itself to prevent it being a viable commercial proposition (to make packages pretty).

And this should take place in a context where people can breastfeed anywhere, with full and knowledgeable support from m/ws, HVs, and lots of volunteer backup, too.

in cloud cuckoo land, is it, tiktok?

Sorry, this is going to be long. I've stayed away from these threads, but have to say that the title really annoyed me. I know this has been already been said and that the OP has explained why she used that title, but still..
I am someone who very early on in pregnancy decided not to even start bfeeding, it gives me the heebyjeebies. Don't mind other people doing it, but to have to do it myself filled (and still does) me with horror. It was the only thing on my birthplan in capital letters; ie. for the midwives not to force me to do it and my DP had my consent to tell midwives to bugger off. In the event I had a bfeeding counsellor at my bed waking me up and demanding to know why I had missed the greatest opportunity in my dd life. While she was ranting I managed to tell her in strong terms to go away, but was left very shaken and upset, but more determined to enjoy feeding her the way I wanted to and not to be intimidated. Personally I prefer to see the money that's being paid to counsellors to be used for home aftercare with your baby, because in this country you fall into a huge black hole without a lot of expert assistance when you most need it. Feel free to have a go, don't mind because I have a lovely dd who is never ill and am proud of myself for sticking to my guns.

no-one's going to have a go, loony, dont worry. in fact i think that's another reason why prescriptions would be a bad idea, because someone like yourself with what sounds like, well, almost a phobia of the idea of bfing your own child, would then have to justify yourself to an unfair degree. i think tiktok may already have said something to that effect, actually.
but lord knows, making formula a bit less expensive and also less blinking mysterious would help, wouldn't it?

LOL Aitch, never thought of myself having a phobia, but I suppose that's what it is! Sorry didn't read the full thread as it's pretty long. You're right about the formula, working it out is quite daunting at first when you're a new mum at home slightly sleep deprived and trying to count the scoops and then losing count!

'slightly sleep deprived'? lucky you...

Just for your information, breastfeeding is so advantageous for newborns, that breastfeeding your baby is still recommended over formula feeding for mothers who smoke. I was worried that some posts on here might make smokers think that they should not breastfeed.

More information here

Are you sure it was a breastfeeding counsellor who woke you up Looneyballoony, and tried to persuade you to bf? That sort of behaviour is totally against their remit.

It is pointless to try to force a mother to bf against her will, I agree, because it's not gonna work.

Thanks for your post LB because I'd forgotten there are a few who have a strong emotional aversion to bf from the start. I'm glad your baby is never ill, but many smokers don't get lung cancer, and some people who don't look when they cross the road, don't get run over.

Grrr, I agree with you that the sight of a mother smoking while feeding her baby is not a good look. I've seen a mother smoking with one hand and holding the baby's bottle in the other, not even looking at the baby who was still strapped into the carseat. No skin to skin contact at all.

At least the baby bf by a smoker was getting some antibodies.

Hi Franny, I do know that and I did (halfheartedly I admit) read a bit about it while I was pregnant, but to me there was never a doubt in my mind very early on. It always felt right to me even though I got totally ignored by midwives during my antenatal classes once I admitted what my decision was. I've never smoked by the way and am teetotaller, not that that makes a huge difference.