Gather round all pro-bfeeding anti-formula MNers I have a question..........................................

[Malaleche]

Shouldnt there be a be-all and end-all bible of breastfeeding info, experiences and statistics etc which every woman should be given at the first pregnancy check-up and MADE to read (yes, I know, maybe we could be examined on it and !) , which has been written by the WHO and breastfeeding experts and which could be the final and last word on bfeeding(...until new evidence means a new edition has to be brought out.....)

I just dont understand why there has to be so much conflicting advice out there and why some women are still so woefully ignorant about bfeeding at the end of the day....

I also agree absolutely that formula should be avaliable only on prescription but before that happens there needs to be a lot more education and (24 hr)support avaliable or there would be a lot of hungry babies and suffering mothers out there....and why don't govs give 9 months maternity leave on full pay if the WHO recommends 6 months exclusive bfeeding (am adding 3 months for establishing weaning)?

Sakura....

How long ago did you have your DC?
I too had my DD in Japan.
My experience was similar to yours, but not quite the same.
I too was given daily breast massages while in hospital, but since leaving I have received no support at all in that area.
(I'm sure I could get some if I needed it enough to go searching though...)

maybe the health benefits of BF for babies are toddler are marginal at this early stage in devpt. However, I believe, in time, BF babies and toddlers will be shown to have superior health in adulthood. Combine it with healthy eating at weaning, a low salt diet and no smoking later in life........ you get the picture.

My tuppenceworth is that ante-natal classes should concentrate on BF, healthy weaning and basic parentcraft of babies and toddlers. These things will have a lasting impact on society. If women want to have a whale-song labour that's fine, but it shouldn't be the focus of ante-natal education.

"I don't see conclusive evidence that breast-fed babies are healthier than formula-fed babies. "

desiderata - there are (iirc) around 15,000 clinical studies showing the superiority of breast milk over formula. I would say that is pretty conclusive.

Must say that I agree with Desiderata's post in the sense that I've not come across any babies/toddlers around me so far who are more healthy than my dd who was exclusively formulafed. And personally I cannot really see the argument for better health in adults purely because of bfeeding, there are so many factors that can cause ill health in later life. Some of you might now argue that's because this way I can justify formula feeding to myself, but I've never needed to justify it, it felt right to me. But like I said before, bfeeding and ffeeding is so personal, at one point we just have to agree to disagree and try not to ridicule or offend the person who does it differently.
Highlander, your tuppenceworth made me laugh because during all my antenatel classes breastfeeding was discussed again and again, even the most "converted" were getting bored with it! So it differs in each region I suppose.

sorry loonyballoony but my ds and a close friends dd were bf til they were two, and are hardly ever ill, ds has had one or 2 colds and 2 tummy bugs and he is now 3. other friends who formula fed have much sicklier (if that's the right word) children, who are always getting ear infection, chest infections, tummy bugs and i also know a lot of ff babies with ecsma (sp?). i think it makes a dif if you exclusively breast feed. i mean surely it's obvious - human milk will make healthier babies than cow's milk with lots of added crap in it? sorry if that sounds rude but feel quite strongly about this.
there is also a lot of scientific research that supports the claim that breastfeeding is soooo much better - if everyone breastfed their children the nhs would save bloody millions!

Hi Daisybo, am not disputing any scientific research and am certainly not stating that formulafed babies are healthier. Just wanted to say that around me I can't see any huge difference in babies health. And as I've only got one dd who is never ill, that's what I'm going on which I'm sure you can understand. Don't think you're rude bytheway, we all see things differently. But to me breastfeeding isn't the be all and end all to parenting. And to be honest to save the NHS money I think this country should sort out it's drinking and smoking habits as well!

It's the difference between research and anecdote, loony (sorry it feels like I'm calling you a loony!). The reason that research is done is to determine what happens when you look at a lot of cases as opposed to a very small group. For everyone who has a story with outcome black, you'll have someone who can say white - so you need to look at thousands of cases to figure out what is actually going on.

That's what's happened with BF and the conclusion is that breast milk has properties that formula will never have (as it's derived from a different species i.e. a cow!) which give protection against various diseases/infections from first days to old age.

This is not to say that people don't have a choice or for whatever valid reasons don't BF. There's a lot of pressure from people on both sides of the debate either to BF or FF - many health professionals are still telling mums to e.g. supplement BF with formula as they've not read the research, which is just plain wrong IMO(my sister's a GP and she does it as she can be sure that she's telling a mum how to feed her baby to ensure its survival. She has 10 minute appointments and has not been trained in BF. I'm sure if there were more BF support around she would refer them to a counsellor - but there's not). That's why IMO it's so emotive - and the reason that this thread is still going!

And I agree about changing smoking/drinking (and why not add in exercise and junk food?) habits to save the NHS, but that's another thread entirely!

Sorry for long post - pregnant, too hot, can't sleep, worried about BF baby2, etc.

The research doesn't say it's so much better. The research that says it make children more intelligent. the difference was only 1 or 2 IQ points which is nothing. I think the chances of allergies was only a few %. There is also some research that says children that are breastfed have higher cholesterol and stiffer arteries later on in life. There is also a recent australian study that shows breastfed children over 6 months can increase allergies in children predisposed to them, because their immunity isn't challenged enough.
I have known breast fed babies with really awful eczema and just as many children with allergies that were breastfed as those that wern't. Infact my breastfed child has lots of allergies and my nonbreastfed child hasn't any at all. I was the only one of my sisters that was breastfed and it is me that has eczema and hayfever and various other allergies.
I very much doubt if you took a playground full of children you could tell which were breastfed and which were not.

Ruthchan, whereabouts in Japan are you? Im in the south in a really rural area. DD is nearly 9 months. Traditional midwives still practice here, and homebirths are common, as is support of breastfeeding. But as I say, in the posher, more "advanced" and well-equipped hospitals in the middle of the city, theyre really starting to push formula (like the story about my friends hospital experience). Did you get given a blue book from your doctor (not the "Boushi Techou" main book to record your childs health). It has a list of all kinds of resources and will have some lactation specialists in there. But its in Japanese (I asked someone to read it for me).
My Australian friend here had a very premature baby who was in intensive care for a month- she could only hold see her for one hour a day, so breastfeeding was buggered.
Now she gets a lactaction specialist who comes to her house once a week, and is managing to re-establish breastfeeding :-)

christywhisty - there is research for just about everything that you want to prove and that's why so much of it is discredited (and/or sponsored by drug companies).

I'm not a health professional but I think this would be one of the places I would trust the most to find out stuff: BMJ

I do agree that a lot of it is blown out of all proportion - mainly by the media who need a headline to sell more papers. And I too know of babies and infants who have been BF and have excema and asthma and FF babies who have never had an ear infection. Just like people who are exposed to the same flu bugs and only some of them end up with flu. It's not a perfect medicine, it is only food. But given the options, it's a pretty good food. And those who are fortunate enough to have been able to have done it should be grateful, not smug and judgemental.

the research I have quoted is here

www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1 365-2222.2007.02696.x

but I get the impression some people are only interested in research if it proves their point, otherwise they find reasons to ignore it.
Yes you can make research prove anything, but that can be said for proving a theory as well as disproving a theory.

I have always found the allergy advise suspicious because it seems to go completely against the evidence of people around me.
I have nothing against breastfeeding, I did it myself, just can't stand the zealousness surrounding it.

There are millions of perfectly healthy normal intelligent happy children out there that were never breastfeed, just as there happy intelligent normal children that weren't.

that last sentence should have read "that were"

i've got to say that any anecdotal observations i might make about the healthiness of bf/ff babies of my acquaintance would be utterly confounded by the fact that my healthy, largely ff daughter has never yet attended nursery and my friends' 'sickly' bf children did so from around 6 months. course, that's why i think anecdotal evidence is useless and we should look to the actual research for answers.

Twinklemegan, haven't read all the thread yet, so not sure if you got your answer. Dd was 4lb 4 oz & I wasn't given any help bf, so had her on C&G. She failed to gain any weight. Her special care nurse put her on Nutriprem 2, which was a free, prescription only formula.

The hassle I had every other week for 6 months trying to get it.

Only Tesco pharmacy would get it for me, out of 4 in town (1 being Boots). The dr would only give me a script for 2 tubs a time & if the pharmacy had run out I had to wait a week for them to get it in. Or I would get 1 tub & have to go back for the other a few days later. I tried to ask Tesco to order it in advance , when I knew I would be needing it, but they wouldn't order without a script. So I would have to make sure I ordered a repeat script at least 2 weeks before I needed it, as it took a week for repeats to be done, then a week for Tesco if it wasn't in. I was constantly at the surgery asking for repeat scripts or collecting, it was just lucky that the drs & Tesco were close to home.

I couldn't get it in handy ready made cartons, or in the single use packs, like you can other formula.

I feel making formula script only will just give drs & pharmacy workers more work to do. Not to mention new mums.

What happens if you are prescribed a formula your LO can't tolerate? Back on the phone, new appointment (and we all know how easy THAT is......not), new script.....instead of being able to wonder down to Tesco/Sainsbury's/local pharmacy to choose a new one...The logistics just won't work! And I have tried it!

Sandcastles, I'm so sorry you weren't helped to bf. Usually people complain about the wrong help, not no help. How much easier life would have been for you if you could bf!
Next time (if there is one), if you want to bf there are several organisations you can phone eg NCT, Breastfeeding Network, La Leche League, Association of Breastfeeding Mothers. There is also help available through NHS but the trouble is, some health profs are better trained to help than others.

Elasticwoman...Dd was in special care for 48 & bottlefeed by her care nurses....I had a c-section under GA (and was very groggy for that time), by the time we were together I thought I could still feed, but she wouldn't latch (which I now know is common with premmies) and when I asked for help I was told they didn't have the resources to help me, and handed a leaflet.

I was in hospital a week, but not one person offered me any help. Both dd & I would be in tears trying...Dh & I had both said I wanted to bf....When I finally got home and had the excellent help of my HV, we still couldn't get her to latch so I gave up as she lost more weight. As soon as she was put on the formula, she thrived.

NHS no help to me here (am in Oz)...but I also know a lot more now than I did then & feel I would be better prepared anyway.

48 hours

And no one brought you a pump and helped you express, Sandcastles? Again, really sorry you've been treated like this. Your feeding was sabotaged from the beginning. Also, your prem baby should have been offered human milk from a milk bank.

I once donated what I thought was a pathetically small amount of milk and the mw collecting it said "oh that could be 10 feeds for a prem baby". They need the human milk more than other babies.

They have Tesco in Oz do they?

No, no pump. Nothing! Didn't even know about milk banks back then! No one mentioned the help lines/institutions you mentioned. I wish I knew MN then, as I know I would have been on here. I am just pleased that she is thriving now. She was only 4 weeks prem, but very low birthweight. You'd never know now tho!

My friends didn't even offer help/advice (but then all the mums amoungst them ff, so maybe they didn't think/know what to say) one friend mentioned trying to mix feed but by that time I had lost faith (mainly in myself) to try.

Sorry, a bit confusing....dd is nearly 4 & was born & raised in the UK til almost a year ago. We emigrated here last year, although I do wish they had tesco here!

Maybe if she wasn't so tiny to start with & very ounce prescious, I would have persevered longer....but I was faced with a premmie baby losing weight fast...I felt like I had no choice. That is when I started the C&G, but that didn't do anything.

22 years ago I took into hospital the La Leche League "Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" (no internet in those days) and that plus fiddling around with the baby on my own seemed to do the trick.

I never felt I got conflicting advice from anyone. 22 years before that when my mother had me and was in the early stage NCT everyone knew breastfeeding was best too.

Most women in Britain give up breastfeeding very early but as someone said below unless you have been that woman you can't know the reasons for her decision although I'd say to Anna any man saying he feels left out and she shouldn't breastfeed the next, needs to be sent on a breastfeeding awareness course or kicked between the legs.

I feel that feeding your child should be a personal choice. Why do others have to interfere and make you feel stigmatised about it... My baby is five weeks old and frankly, at some stage, I got really angry about the misinformation which came from breastfeeding 'fanatism' - engorgement is not uncomfortable, it can be excruciatingly painful - when I called the ladies from La Leche League in despair after a night of agony, they just went on about the fact it wasn't normal and perhaps the baby wasn't latched on properly when that wasn't at all the problem... The midwife who visited me said my baby needed a top up of formula because he had jaundice and wasn't doing well - BUT also kept repeating how she never ever recommended this usually as if it was something terrible, until i discoverd it happened so frequently etc etc.

It's okay to encourage breastfeeding, but it's not to be dishonest about its negative/very challenging aspects. These are barely touched upon in breastfeeding workshops and no info is available on the real benefits e.g. of mixed feeding. Is it worth breastfeeding if you are going to give up after six weeks etc... All the info should be given honestly, and then women can make up their minds - we're grown ups, we should be left to chose, not be pressurised about it.

Well I really enjoyed it. It was almost psychosexual too, a huge source of pleasure, which isn't much written about either!

People shouldn't beat themselves up about it. It's like the fanaticism about staying home. I chose to return to work when the babies were 2 weeks. Why isn't that a legitimate choice? Why can't people accept that that can benefit children and be better than a mother at home? But no they impose their own little world view on you, more fool them.

Sandcastles, I am amazed this happened only 4 years ago in UK. Many hospitals are much more "bf friendly". There is nothing else you could have done at the time as you didn't know about expressing and didn't know about the bf help organisations. But if you have another baby, and want to bf next time, do find out your local sources of help (La Leche League is active in Oz I think) in advance, and stipulate in your birth plan that you want to bf.

Julesfrenchie - it would be nice if feeding could be based on an INFORMED personal choice, with appropriate help thrown in. Yes, bf can be agony - it certainly was for me until my last baby was 10 weeks old, even though I had successfully bf the first two. It was the motivation I had, knowing that I wanted those antibodies for my baby, and the bf experience for us both, and my faith that it would sort itself out in the end, that kept me going.

After 10 weeks, for me it became comfortable and even pleasurable and it would have been such a shame to miss that after going through the initial distress.

There are also good environmental reasons for bf which no one has mentioned yet. No bottles, no sterilising (well, unless you express) and little waste. Human milk is a huge resource largely underused in the UK compared with other parts of the world.

It might not be my business whether any particular individual woman bfs or ffs, but I believe it is in our interests as a society to encourage and promote bf.

Sakura
I'm in Aichi prefectre, in a city called Okazaki. Where are you?
DD is 6 months old.
In this area I am not aware of anyone who has had a home birth, though breast feeding is definitely encouraged.
I too have a notebook, but mine in written in English. That's really useful for me, but they only included the basic pages for noting the pregancy, birth and child's health. It doesn't include any of the extra information that the Japanese versions have.
At my hospital DD was in my room 24 hours a day from birth and I was encouraged to BF from the beginning.
However, friends at other hospitals could only see their babies at feeding time and didn't BF at all at night. They were not in intensive care either.
It really seems to depend on the hospital.
For example. could your DH attend your DD's birth?
(Sorry for the hijack everyone!!)