Gather round all pro-bfeeding anti-formula MNers I have a question..........................................

[Malaleche]

Shouldnt there be a be-all and end-all bible of breastfeeding info, experiences and statistics etc which every woman should be given at the first pregnancy check-up and MADE to read (yes, I know, maybe we could be examined on it and !) , which has been written by the WHO and breastfeeding experts and which could be the final and last word on bfeeding(...until new evidence means a new edition has to be brought out.....)

I just dont understand why there has to be so much conflicting advice out there and why some women are still so woefully ignorant about bfeeding at the end of the day....

I also agree absolutely that formula should be avaliable only on prescription but before that happens there needs to be a lot more education and (24 hr)support avaliable or there would be a lot of hungry babies and suffering mothers out there....and why don't govs give 9 months maternity leave on full pay if the WHO recommends 6 months exclusive bfeeding (am adding 3 months for establishing weaning)?

I also hope, Voldie, that you're not implying that women like me who go to hell and back are "making up excuses". I'm sure you're not, but you do need to be careful with making sweeping statements as it's so easy to cause deep offence. I'm not sure if MNTowers is going to delete this thread btw - the request was made a good couple of days ago.

Think bfing helps protect against excema, which is what my friends children have.

Nope, it didn't protect my DS against that either, but I'm not saying it doesn't work for others.

hmmmmmm.

Breastfeeding, for a 21st century European woman, is actually quite difficult. The genie is out of the bottle. Someone invented formula food, and my guess is that it was a woman.

I don't personally believe that breast/formula makes any difference whatsoever to the growing child.

But breastfeeding in a difficult climate is becoming an evangelist issue. I can perfectly understand that if you have breastfed successfully, you might adopt an opinion against those that don't.

Do whatever you want. No one is wrong.

I think that some may be wrong, too quick to turn to formula.
But I also think it is their own children they are depriving, not mine, so what the hell.

I refer to my first post on this thread that before criticising a woman for turning to formula you should walk a mile in her shoes. Would YOU have managed to endure being in absolute, agonising pain at every single feed for 4.5 months with a DS who struggled and struggled 'til the bitter end. Would you?
I wasn't "depriving" my DS, because when I gave in and introduced some formula he got his mummy back.

And i really don't think that I deprived my child of anything when I started formula. Breastfeeding just didn't work, she was flagged as 'failing to thrive' and referred to a paediatrican.
All this with a great breastfeeding support group, lots of will to breastfeed, and previous success at doing so with my firstborn.
The failure would have been if I persisted because of outside pressure to do so.

anyway, who's sitting in judgement on how quick is too quick? i probably gave dd formula too quickly in order to fully protect my continued breastfeeding, but i did it at exactly the right time for the doctors who told me that my insistence on exclusive bfing would damage her kidneys. it's not really for anyone but ourselves to judge, at the end of the day. we try our best, and for some people that's formula.

Cool, I'm not judging you. If you have done the best thing for your child how can you be wrong...no way.

Voldie, breastfeeding can help protect against eczema, but it doesn't always - my friend N's wee boy has eczema, and she's still exclusively breastfeeding him at 8 months.

Any "excuse" that a mum makes as to why she can't breastfeed is presumably at least valid to her - it's not for you or anyone to judge whether it constitutes an adequate reason for not breastfeeding.

Whoops! Before I get pounced on, I forgot to add the necessary codicil to the bottom of my post - of course breastmilk is best for babies, it is nutritionally superior in just about every way and in other ways besides. But some people just can't breastfeed - even though your definition of "can't" and theirs might not coincide.

Lazyemma, pleased to hear you had an understanding midwife and that she talked you through your decision. I was very angry at first at this woman I encountered, but that's all gone now. I have always been happy with my own decision and still am and would do the same with my second. It's just now and again you come across people who demand you explain yourself but don't really want to listen and accept anyway because their "way" (ie. bfeeding) is best. Last year I got lectured by a lady who smoked and drank and also breastfed (not sure if she did it all at the same time, hope not), so I can't see why she should feel that she has a right to lecture me as she smokes and drinks and I don't. I suppose it's such a personal issue, like politics and religion, we have to agree to disagree.

I'm totally pro-breastfeeding - before my surgery and resulting fallout, I always planned to breastfeed any babies of my own. I live in Scotland and I was delighted by the legislation making it illegal to prevent women from breastfeeding in public. But first and foremost I am a feminist, which means I support above all a woman's right to make her own decisions about her own body and the welfare of her own children without fear of sneering opprobrium from other women.

chocolatepenny - i am not long gone.... just loath to bump this thread as i am

voldie - bfeeding doesnt seem to help prevent eczema, both mine have it, albeit mildly. Allergies seem more likely to occur in children whose parents are allergic so i would guess there was a genetic disposition or 'weakness'.

I emailed MN days ago asking them to delete this thread but maybe they dont think its offensive enough? Or maybe that's not how to go about getting a thread deleted. Anyway, since more people have joined in it seems more watered down now than when the thread was new. Frankly, I've seen far worse on MN.

However i still regret the title and some parts of the OP and the offense i have given. I have had my hand well and truly smacked and have learnt my lesson.

And for those of you who believe in karma i have been having trouble bfeeding DD2 since i wrote the OP.

Voldie

If you really think that your friend's kids have eczema because she didn't breastfeed you need to get educated re eczema/allergies fast, before your ignorance makes you a laughing stock.

This is what turns me against some pro-breastfeeding individuals, small possibilities of potential health benefits magnified out of all proportion. It's possible that you were misled by a midwife/health visitor as some of them seem to truly believe that breastfeeding is a cure-all and if that is the case you are not alone and your offensive post is more understandable.

If your baby is going to have eczema/allergies, its extremely likely to be genetic. If you can't initially find a family connection, look harder, on both sides of the family. It's surprising how, if pushed, the older generation can re-call someone having sniffles (hay fever), a bad chest (asthma) or bad skin (eczema etc).
What the research seems to indicate and what is sometimes misinterpreted even by midwives/health visitors, is that breastfeeding seems to lessen the severity of these problems, not prevent them altogether.

What still puzzles me is how researchers can possibly measure the reduction in severity from breastfeeding given that they surely have no idea how severe the problem would have been for that particular babay as the baby in question has been breastfed and not formula fed so no direct comparison is available.

How does the researcher measure how much worse a formula fed baby's condition is given that the baby has not been breastfed to obtain a comparison.

The genetic link is so strong and the symptoms so specific to each baby that I have my doubts as to the measurable benefits.

well said Grrr

It is not so much the health benefits of bf, but the health hazards of ff.

I have to say you are right about a sense of proportion, Grrr, because these days one often hears inflated claims about bf and obesity and intelligence, when imo both of these are far more affected by genes and environment.

However, there is hard evidence that ff babies are far more likely than bf babies to get infections. In my experience this seems to be true, so I believe it.

It is interesting that some people on this thread have expressed a lack of faith in the superiority of breastmilk, so if it's more convenient for them to ff, I can see why they do it.

Twinklemegan if you're still reading - you bf your baby for far longer than the majority of babies in the UK, and in very difficult circumstances. I can't understand why you're beating yourself up about it. You might be sad if you had to stop before you wanted to, but why guilty? I am not criticising but full of admiration for your tenacity.

who was it that expressed a lack of faith in the superiority of bm, elastic? i missed that. someone had a downright phobia of bfing, surely you don't mean her?

"However, there is hard evidence that ff babies are far more likely than bf babies to get infections. In my experience this seems to be true, so I believe it"

As Aitch says, I'm not sure who on this thread has doubted that to be the case.

Since you mention it, I do take issue with your earlier comparison of the risks of formula feeding to those of smoking or crossing a road without looking. IMO, that's a rather alarmist claim - I'd be interested to see "hard evidence" to back it up.

Desi did aitch.

And, it was Henri Nestle who invented formula milk. (Although its quite possible his wife was the driving force behind it, however, in 1867 it isnt likely she'll have got any credit for it).

I believe that Henri Nestle had the very best intentions when he invented it. Shame the name that now exists in his name is killing 16,000 in the Philippines in the name of profit.

The company...not the name.....grrr

Thanks Elasticwoman, but I should clarify it wasn't exclusive . I don't know why I felt/feel guilty. Actually I don't really feel guilty so much now that I know what was wrong - I feel let down.

Excuse me, VVVQV

I made an inoffensive post in which I said that in my opinion there was no difference in health between breast/bottle fed babies.

I didn't say that breast milk was inferior. Of course it isn't! It is superior, but some mothers can't make it for the full six months, as this thread has shown.

We gather our opinions by our experience. When I was a child in the 70s, no one had allergies and most kids of that era had been bottle-fed. I am not suggested that formula feed is a protection against allergy, and I'm certain that breast is best, but I don't see conclusive evidence that breast-fed babies are healthier than formula-fed babies.

Desiderata, why do you say this?: " I don't see conclusive evidence that breast-fed babies are healthier than formula-fed babies."

The evidence that breastfeeding is better for children's health is so overwhelming that Rabin reports even the formula manufacturers acknowledge that breast milk is the first choice.

That is just one article among hundreds on google that there is conclusive evidence that breast-fed babies are healthier than formula-fed babies.

Grrr, while its true that you can`t measure what the benefits of breastmilk would have been for a particular baby, if it had been BF intead of FF, you can look at the general health of BF babies and FF babies. BF babies are healthier, and have fewer infections, allergies etc. SO from this, we can assume that a FF baby would have more of a chance to be healthier if it had been breastfed.

** This is not a slight against formula feeding mothers. I`ve made this very clear in my previous posts below. Attitudes towards mothers who formula feed is one issue (as I say, not an issue in Japan), but its quite another thing to downplay the health benefits of breastfeeding, and that is what I am responding to here.

Sorry, this thread is too long to read in its entirity, but...

I completely agree that mothers should be given support, information and anything else they need to be able to make an informed decision about how best to feed their own baby in accordance with their own circumstances.
Of course BF is best and personally I wouldn't have it any other way, but there are many people for whom that isn't the best option and surely they have the right not to be judged or penalised for that choice.
With regards to whether formular should be free, would that not encourage some people unnecessarily to use it rather than BF? I know that some people have no choice, but the cost may help to discourage others.