I am ashamed of myself for being so judgemental.

[Gingerbear]

A mum from DD's school had a baby last week. I saw her yesterday and was chatting to her about all things baby. Then she got out a bottle and filled it with a carton of formula. I felt my heart sink and I thought, oh no, she hasn't even tried to breastfeed. I was about to say, 'I will be breastfeeding again next time' but held my tongue. I have no idea about her views, if she had problems with breastfeeding and I don't know her well enough to broach the subject.
It is such a personal issue, and so easy to offend someone. I just feel so sad and frustrated at myself for being unable to speak to her.

(that is how it sounds)

she may have no nipples! She would still be able to walk and talk and seem fine!

anyway i am off to bed night x

Sorry - hospital speak.

Medically as in she was walking and talking fine a week after birth.

Ongoing conditions that are controlled by medication dont mean you are medically unwell if it is controlling the situation. Thus - notwithstanding ongoing medication to control ongoing conditions. Clearer?

She may have had no nipples, but, its highly unlikely, lets face it. This is borderline ridiculous.

Of course there are very valid reasons as to why people give their child formula. I do ffs! I dont and never will feel guilty for it. I cant change what nature did.

I DO feel sad that some people feel bad because they couldnt feed their child the way they would have preferred.

I DONT think its fair to judge a person on their pg focussed musings for the very same reason.

She may have had a wolf living up her top, growling at the baby and scaring it away from her non-existent nipples too, but I think that's unlikely.

But hey, while we're inventing situations, why not add "flippant" to the criteria?

More fun.

No matter how it is written, feeling sad about that poor baby is very judgemental. OP doesn't know her circumstances, maybe she was on drugs/had no breasts/ had an enlargement/reduction/maybe she wasn't comfortable feeding in public so carried a bottle on the school run just in case/ maybe she doesn't like the idea of BF.... whatever the reason....it's no one elses business.

No parent is perfect, everyone does things that maybe aren't perfection, no one has the right to judge (unless the child is in actual harm)

I see many parents doing things very different to me, I have my teenagers telling me other parents do things very different (so and so's parents let her/him) And I always give the same answer, different parents, different parenting

Keep your sadness for people who truly need sympathy

(and yes, I was a BFer and never a FFer....because I could and wanted to)

This sort of threads are the worst of mumsnet! It is not about BF or FF feeding, is about failing to realise that many woman fail to establish BF for a number of circumstances, and it makes my blood boil to hear Sherlock here so emotionally talking about her struggle and frustration while most people just ignore her pain and continue judging a woman (and hurting some others in the process) even when no one knows the circumstances that made her formula feed. As far as I had noticed in Mumsnet, most mums who end up FF don't do it out of personal comfort, most tried, failed and felt frustrated about it. Why do we need to be so judgemental?

Actually, Chandra, I disagree that this thread is the worst of mumsnet.

On this thread and elsewhere on mumsnet, I've seen some comments that I would consider judgemental, but the judgers are usually far outweighed by people saying that it's wrong to judge.

I imagine that everywhere you go, you will find people ready to jump to a snap conclusion and make judgements about other parents.

But actually I think mumsnet is pretty good about this sort of thing. People who make sweeping or hurtful judgemental statements on mumsnet are very quickly put right.

In fact I think that actual judgers are a tiny minority, but I think there are plenty of people who feel judged by a comment when the commenter was not actually judging, iykwim. That's a tricky problem.

There are a handful of topics where that doesn't apply, one is BF, another one is about that who can't be named, private vs. state education, etc.

I used to get so wound up by these threads.

That is because my insecurities were being highlighted by the fact that breastfeeding a baby is nutritionally the best start to their life.

I think we all know that. It's not rocket science.

I don't get wound up by these threads anymore. I am secure enough as a mother of 2 (nearly 3) to know I did my best.

My babies are alive to tell the tale and they didn't starve.

Now if they starved and were malnourished (like many, many babies in under-developed countries) - that would be something to feel sad about. Perhaps people who feel sad for FF babies should consider this before airing condescending views about the choices of other parents.

Oh and I should clarify that given the option between breastfeeding and starving I think it highly likely in my circumstances that they would have starved if I hadn't bottle fed.

To look at me you would never have guessed i.e. if you had seen me in the formula aisle. Your sadness would have been judgemental in the extreme.

I am a complete failure as a breastfeeder to my DS. I have only managed to feed him a handful of times, even though I tried for 4.5 months. I express for 2 hours a day so that he doesn't have to have formula, but in the first couple of weeks I couldn't express quite enough milk so I was that woman in the supermarket, buying formula.

Every time I bought formula, and even now when I feed my son a bottle of EBM, I see people judging me, and considerately holding their tongue. In some ways I would rather people said something so that I could tell them how ignorant, rude and downright wrong they are about me and my circumstances. But I'm only 5'2" and not very hard, so maybe it's as well they don't!

Please don't feel pleased with yourself for 'not saying something.' Feel ashamed that you would judge a woman you don't even know.

I think on the bf issue it should be what is right for that individual and is nothing to do with anyone else. I tried wth both my children and was better at expressing than the feeding. Unfortunately I couldn't express enough. My son has 3 weeks of milk and my daughter 6 weeks. I has a tremendous guilt the first time I gave up, combined with an emergency C section, I felt a failure. Second time round I felt I had given her a good start. As one health visitor said to me, you can't tell when they are 5 and all lined up, which ones were breastfed!

It's interesting that there seem to be two kinds of objections to people feeling sad on seeing a baby being FF:

I. We shouldn't feel sad, because sadness should be saved for babies who really need it, with serious problems. In other words: worse things happen at sea than FF. This is a fair point I think (and I think it can seem a bit patronising if someone says they feel sorry for us or our family), except of course we all feel very sad (moved to tears perhaps) about big things and a little bit sad (when we might think "oh that's a pity") about small things - it's not black or white, we feel sad in different ways appropriate to the particular issue. And new parents are always biased towards feeling emotions about anything to do with babies, however small!

II. We shouldn't feel sad, because the mum might not have had a choice. This I don't really follow, as it implies that if a baby was an orphan, say (picking a more extreme example, obviously), we should only feel sad if the baby was abandoned (parents had a choice) but not if the parents died (they had no choice). But that's not how it works, we'd feel sad for the baby regardless of how they came to be in that situation, it's not making a judgement.

The issue of how and when people express the sadness they might feel for the baby or mum is separate really - I do feel a bit uneasy about this thread as it seems to be about (please don't be offended, original poster - Gingerbear?) what was really a little flash of a feeling, and all action based on it towards that particular FF mum was suppressed, except that the feelings were expressed in a way (even if instantly declared wrong by the OP herself) here towards amongst others a lot of other FF mums. So, tricky... but it makes a good point in one sense: it's hard not to make superficial judgements, and sometimes they're wrong. But there's nothing special about BF or FF in that respect, it's just that in the case of infant feeding the superficial picture is usually the tip of a deep, complex and emotional iceberg, whereas with other parenting things we judge each other for, the superficial picture is more often really be all there is.

In any case, we all make judgements and anyone who claims not to is a hypocrite. I have to say I hate this word judgmental on boards, when it's used as a criticism in itself ("how dare you be so judgmental" etc.). To the best of my understanding it seems to be used to mean "making a negative judgment of someone, thinking such and such a parenting decision of theirs a bad one" (obviously implying that they're not such a good parent as the person assessing them). But anyone who claims they never assess another person's parenting decisions and compare them to their own standards is deluded or lying. We all do it, and in that sense we're all judgmental - we make judgements, and sometimes we agree with the people we're thinking about, and sometimes we don't.

If you hear someone's feeding struggle story and think to yourself "what an awful situation, I can totally see why she stopped BF, I would have too", you're making a judgment just as much as if you think to yourself "I can't understand why she stopped". One is no better than another, we can't stop ourselves having thoughts like that, or asking those questions to ourselves. How you express those, knowing when to listen, to shut up, to be considerate and understanding and in the case of BF truly understanding that the second statement ("I can't understand why she stopped") does not automatically mean there was no very good reason - those are the important things. The idea that anyone can ever not make judgments of other people's behaviour is ludicrous - it's the sea we all swim in, it's human life.

well said fireflighty.

cor fireflighty, wish I could think as clearly as you, then I might be a bit more effective and stop putting hot cups of tea in the fridge drawer.. it's motherhood what did it!

ok, another thought. maybe there's not enough open judgementalness in society AND enough ways in which people can engage with each other. So the woman should say something to the other woman buying formula, like 'why aren't you breastfeeding your child?' and the other woman could say 'actually I can't, and it's none of your business,' or whatever. Rather than everyone walking round boiling with opinions they have to vent online.

In a lot of countries people are more open with each other like that.. maybe better to be direct and get a direct response back?

Fireflighty, I think the 'sadness' feeling some have expressed, only 'feels' like a judgment when directed towards the baby.

AS I said earlier, to feel 'sad' that the mother had to give up bf for an unknown reason, feels supportive.

To feel 'sad' for the baby, feels to an often already guilt ridden ff mother as a judgement on her parenting, and is interpreted as 'I feel sorry for your baby, that you do not care enough/try harder, and are not as good a parent as me.'

This willinevitably cause a defensive lioness reaction, to 'prove' I am a loving mother, I love my baby just as much as you and am just as good a parent. (also usually involves much explaining of/justification of why they are ff)

I would have thought most women on here would know the hurt it can cause, would know the guilt many feel and would be more sensitive in the issue.

Yes we do all make judgments all the time, but judgments on peoples parenting are VERY VERY sensitive, as we see on MN all the time, but particualrly with ff as so many already feel a failure in this area, and to be reminded that is how they are seen in others eyes is painful.

When oh when, will we find a way to promote bf without all the judgemnt and the pain caused? I do find it 'sad' myself that we are not more supportive of each other in this issue.

It makes you feel sad but she may be perfectly happy with her decision, and that's her business - not yours or anyone else's. I bf both mine but I'd say well done for not commenting - that is exactly what perpetuates the bf nazi/police stereotype that everyone is quite rightly outraged about on the other thread.

'I feel sorry for your baby, that you do not care enough/try harder, and are not as good a parent as me.'
the thing is Smileyspeople that is pure fiction, and pretty offensive fiction at that - to assume that gingerbear (and anyone else who felt sad for a baby in that situation) would be thinking anything so vile and vicious is just plain nasty.

I'm saying that this is how it 'feels' to a ff feeding mother, if some one is 'feeling' sorry for her baby because she is not giving them (for whatever reason) the best start.

It feels like a judgement on your parenting and that you are not as 'good' a parent as the bf mother who you feel is judging you.

AS Fireflighty said, with this issue we are dealing with a deep seated emotional issue.

I was not suggesting GB thought that, I was suggesting this is how the 'sad for the baby comment' makes some ff mothers feel.

look at some of the reactions on the thread. they are defensive and angry because they feel judged and this is painful.

I am just asking those who do judge, to consider the imapct of that, and how bf can be promoted in a more supportive way.

SmileysPeople, I'm not sure how much of your post was addressed to me, but if more than the very first line was, I think you may have taken me to be saying something I wasn't. And you do seem to be mixing up feeling sadness and expressing sadness. You truly can't control people feeling sadness - but people can choose when they express it. When you say (paraphrased) 'feeling sad for the baby will inevitably cause a defensive reaction' - that's not really what's going on, is it? It's that feeling being expressed, not it being felt, that's the problem. And I'd generally agree that 99% of the time, no one should be going round expressing sadness towards someone about their baby being FF, even indirectly by talking generally about bottlefed babies in front of mums who bottlefeed in general, unless they are prepared for the reaction. In all but a few contexts it's a gaffe, basically, a piece of tactlessness, and it would be seen as patronising and inconsiderate. But that is the expressing of that feeling, not the feeling itself. It was the feeling that I was talking about at the start of my post.

I was analysing, not taking a particular side (though obviously I had opinions in there about some of the things said), and I thought I made it pretty clear I know judgements are sensitive. I wasn't making some kind of simplistic argument that we all make judgements, so expressing any judgement is OK (that would be ridiculous). I was quibbling the equally ridiculous use of phrases like "that's so judgemental" as criticisms. Making a judgement in itself is unavoidable - it's knowing when to speak it and when to keep it to oneself (which includes understanding how sensitive an issue is, and also when there might be lots more information we don't have etc.) that's important. Just to repeat - those things are important.

Surely there is so much info promoting bf that if someone is ff-ing for any reason then it's just plain rude to comment?

I agree with what you say fireflighty , was just adding to it really.

I think the confusion, between the feeling sad and expressing it, arises because the OP did not express it (thank goodness) but it has been expressed on here which does then cause an emotional reaction for some.

Of course we all do amke judgments all the time, I would just sk us to be more gentle on each other in our judgements on this issue, as we'd get further by being supportive rather than judging.