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Infant feeding

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Another article about how awful breastfeeding is, this time in a feminist publication

560 replies

Caligula · 10/01/2007 15:06

I thought some of you would like to read this.

This misinformation bugged me:

"Times change though, and the formulas on the market are hopefully as close to what comes out of your boob, as they will ever be".

Wonder what the rest of you think

the new breastfeeding taboo

OP posts:
moondog · 19/01/2007 12:46

BBW,I would have a chat with them about that.
I would agree that your experiences are as valid as anyone else's.
Jack Neuman is a top chap in this world and he sure as hel didn't breastfeed!

yellowrose · 19/01/2007 14:43

the other thing i have heard about scandanavia is that if you bf in public, no matter how young/old the child, no one bats an eye lid - it is socially acceptable that bf is normal and their govts. TOTALLY support it

i also always get the impression that scandanavians are very liberated when it comes to body/physical function matters, i.e. no hang ups about nudity or sex, it means that they are not so concerned about exposed boobs !

Twinklemegan · 19/01/2007 18:32

"I can quite understand how someone who couldn't or didn't know how to access that support would just give up." I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking, and I'm not sure if you had my son's tongue tie in mind here, but just to point out that I didn't give up. I battled on for weeks and months, admittedly mixed feeding because I couldn't keep up bf exclusively. I only stopped eventually after 4.5 months when my son wouldn't suck when he had a cold which was the end for my diminishing milk supply. By then I had finally achieved (almost) pain free breastfeeding.

yellowrose · 19/01/2007 18:38

twinkle - who is your post addressed to ? not me again i hope

Twinklemegan · 19/01/2007 18:40

BabeLisa - that is really disappointing I think. Unfortunately, my feeling has often been that the reason much of the promotion of bf isn't more realistic could be because the people involved in such promotion and support are the ones who didn't have so many problems, and so managed to continue for that long. More help with mixed feeding in particular from people who've been there and succeeded would be a godsend for many women who feel their only choice is to give up altogether. This sounds like a bit of a catch 22 unless they change their entry requirements.

Twinklemegan · 19/01/2007 18:42

No sorry it was Aloha. She specifically mentioned the tongue tie problem so I just wanted to clarify that in my eyes I didn't give up. I'm quite proud to have managed for as long as I did, that's all.

moondog · 19/01/2007 18:44

Twinkle,I think the trouble is rather that people think they can mixed feed (ie giving top ups and so on) and then to their horror,they find their supply dwindles and they are on full bottles.

The whole top up nonsense scuppers lots of women's chances of ever gettnig it properly off the ground.

Twinklemegan · 19/01/2007 18:49

Oh I agree Moondog, I've been there! But there are ways of making it more successful than it might be. I've seen threads on here from women wanting to give up bf because of all their problems. How much better to be supported to wind down gradually, if they really don't mind stopping eveontually, and maybe find a level that's sustainable for them? In my case me DS got 3.5 months more bf than he would have got otherwise.

Twinklemegan · 19/01/2007 18:50

sorry for the typos - DS is on my knee pulling my hair!

moondog · 19/01/2007 18:53

Hmm,yes but by introducing formula (when they don't want to) in most cases they are in fact hastening the demise of b/feeding, esp. in early days.
Beyond about 3/4 months I think it is more feasible.

yellowrose · 19/01/2007 18:54

twinkle - my LLL leader had NOT bf her first 2 babies, had enourmous problems and lack of support when her first 2 were born she had lacked prof. and family support. She only managed 2 bf her last 2, twins as it turned out, through the help and support of LLL

so here is an example of someone who works for a global bf org. who herself had previously only formula fed and had many obstacles before she managed it with lots of help

so i don't think it is true that all women who work for these orgs. were somehow natural born bf-ers most of the ones i have known have sad and sorry tales of woe to tell you about their own experiences

in fact i think they do the job for no money because they are passionate about helping others

i think lisa should put her case forward in writing to LLL or NCT or whoever turned her down and argue that she has valid experience

welliemum · 19/01/2007 19:20

I agree, Lisa, you should argue your point. When you struggle with something, you end up knowing far more about it than if you'd done it easily.

And after all your clients will be people who are struggling, not people who are bf easily.

That said, you could argue that personal experience isn't necessary at all (although it must be helpful). Diabetic nurses aren't expected to have diabetes themselves for instance. And we would expect all midwives to know the basics of bf whatever their personal experience.

I think good training counts for a lot here.

Twinklemegan · 19/01/2007 20:01

Moondog - I'm talking about cases where the only realistic options are introducing some formula or go totally for formula feeding. If I hadn't introduced some formula I couldn't have fed my baby, it's that simple. That's entirely different from women being forced onto formula top ups where more support for their breastfeeding is all that's required. I hope you can see the difference?

maewest · 19/01/2007 20:58

Twinkle - I know in your case there was no choice, but I think the point that has been made is that too often women are advised to top-up without any consideration of the situation, thus causing probs with establishing bf. My mw suggested formula topups when DS was 1 week old as he was jaundiced and not gaining weight. I would count this as a fairly 'standard' bf prob and would have appreciated some more support along the lines of how to encourage him to feed more often, skin-to-skin etc. As it was we went into hosp and he was 'topped up' with EBM by cup. I had no real problems with latching and supply was fine, so have no doubt that giving him a bottle at this point would have caused problems with establishing bf.

maewest · 19/01/2007 21:03

oh, and hope you don't think I'm getting at you, promise I'm not trying to be a smug bfer

3andnomore · 19/01/2007 21:36

Twinklemegan, I have to disagree with the following:
"BabeLisa - that is really disappointing I think. Unfortunately, my feeling has often been that the reason much of the promotion of bf isn't more realistic could be because the people involved in such promotion and support are the ones who didn't have so many problems, and so managed to continue for that long. More help with mixed feeding in particular from people who've been there and succeeded would be a godsend for many women who feel their only choice is to give up altogether. This sounds like a bit of a catch 22 unless they change their entry requirements. "

I think a lot of very dedicated breastfeeders have been through probs....I know that personally some of the challenges thown at me I took in my stride, because of my thinking about it, whereas others gave up, because for them it wasn't quite so important....
Saying that, giving up bf wiht my first was only once I knew more about it, that I felt "deprived" but at the time I was fine and wasn't to bothered....if that makes sense!
BUt the realisty is, that although of course there are the lucky ones that never have no probs, a lot of people that do succeed have had probs of some kind...with ds2 it was recurrant thrush, even breastthrush, where it felt like I was passing glass through my boobs, but luckily by then I had made my mind up and knew how much I personally hated Bottlefeeding and the hassle...so, it was purely selfish reasons I kept going to bf, even though I cried, and felt it was the last thing I was doing at the time....!
This does not make me smug, nor great, it just made me slefish in knowing what I wanted...however, talking about smugness, generally FF mums seem to be more smug about sleeping, lol ;)!

3andnomore · 19/01/2007 21:41

And oh, I wasn't trying to be smug, just showing my own personal lazyness!

MissM · 20/01/2007 10:22

I don't feel smug about it, just pleased and lucky that I had a lot of support and a lot of determination and was able to bf relatively easily (I say relatively as I also experienced a lot of pain, poor latch, no latch at all to begin with as she was early and weeks of tears (mine and DD's). My over-riding feeling though is that if the health professionals are going to shove the importance of bf down our throats (and so they should), then they should put their money where their mouths are and provide the support to do it. I was shocked at how difficult bfing was, and I'm someone who always expected to bf, who had read all the books, and who has a good bfing role model in my mum. So what I'm saying is, if you haven't got all the conditions in place to support you in bf, you should be able to get support from those who are telling you how important it is.

This is not to put down those who can't bf for whatever reason.

lovecloud · 20/01/2007 11:37

I think its a real shame that new mothers have to have to go through all these feeling of guilt and then if they choose to breastfeed then have to feel like they have to constantly justify it to the point that they make it sound like almost a bad thing to do.

When your pregnant, everyone around you feels like they have the right to give you knowledge on what you should be eating, drinking etc... even strangers in the street come up and comment on your growing belly, bulging eyes and smiles at the size of it and then even trying to touch it!!! Is there ever any other time in yoru life that strangers woul do this. But it doesnt stop thre as soon as the babies born, mothers, mil's, friends etc EVERYONE starts telling how THEY think you should do it(i've even done it myself with my friends) but if we want info we will ask for it!

Then comes the feeding, I breastfed both my children and I have to say that I loved every minute of it, found feeding times so cosy and yes relaxing even the second time around. When you breast feed you have to make yourself comfortable and especially for my second child it had to be a calm zone for her to relax so I had to make that effort every feeding time, yes the dvd would go on for dd1 or i would promise her another story after the feed if she played nicely and quieltly whilst I fed dd2. I found it hard,stressful and painful for the first few weeks with both
children but i am quite stubborn and because i had so much joy from the first time i knew that if i stuck in there i would get the same second time around. My dd2 is now 9 mths and I am not ready to stop yet.

I never got great support from hv, in fact every time i complained they told me to give her a bottle of formula so ut was the other way round for me.

I started a thread before to say that the true facts of bf should be known to pregnant mums that yes it does hurt the majority of mums even if latched on right but this painful period does end.

fireflighty · 21/01/2007 20:37

Hmmm... I must say that the idea that too many BF counsellors are women who had no problems, and not enough are women who have had problems BF, is completely at odds with my experience of those I know. In fact I know a lot of women who are very enthusiastic about BF support and far more often than not they're those who've had problems. I'm not a BF counsellor but I am enthusiastic about helping people to get help, sharing proper evidence-based information and support, busting the worst myths and so on, and in my case thatt's precisely because I had bad problems early on - thrush not diagnosed till about 3 months or so - absolute agony - was let down by normal health professionals until I saw a BF counsellor, etc. etc. It's precisely because I'm aware that, of a random 20 women with undiagnosed breast thrush, say, I may have been the one lucky one who eventually read the right web page, worked out what was going on, and found my way to a BF counsellor (i.e. breastfed despite not because of the basic help offered by the NHS), that I'm enthusiastic about helping other people to get the help I wish I'd had. This is true of many, many other women I know.

As for smugness - an awful lot of that is in the eye and ear of the beholder - certainly if I'm honest I know it was in my case when I was still having a bad time and in the immediate months afterwards. I saw smugness just because those people were happy and bfeeding and it was absolute hell for me. I'm sure there's some real smugness amongst women who feel something's gone right for them just as I'm sure the woman at the next changing table to me in her yummy mummy posh clothes with her fashion victim pushchair may have felt smug when my baby pooed all over the mat as I stook there in my crappy coat with my knackered pushchair loaded with carrier bags - so what? But I'm sure it's not the default state for other mums, and making a comment, if someone does, is just rude, it's not something you learn to do if you phone a BF helpline, say!

FWIW, I've never seen any direct evidence myself of a 'BF mafia' or 'BF lobby' - the range of experiences and opinions and knowledge amongst mums is soooo huge and varied that there just is no clear discrete group like that, let alone one that's plotting in the way implied by words like 'mafia' or 'lobby'. On the other hand, I've seen it referred to sooo often - which I see as a problem in itself. How many new mums facing BF problems are all geared up to protect themselves from this 'BF mafia' everyone knows about and people have warned them about, and therefore see it where it isn't really, and maybe treat information from other mums who've BFed as something to treat with suspicion - something possibly dangerously ideologically based, rather than the simple basic practical advice it really is? Bandying around terms like that creates the problem of mums who instinctively don't want to actually take their problem to other mums who've breastfed - you see this on boards in other places - they don't want to ask a board like this for fear of people who'll somehow force them to breastfeed, they want to ask mums who'll give them 'unbiased' advice - 'normal' mums they trust but who half the time, while sincere, just don't have the practical BF knowledge that's needed and which a group of mums who've all done it could have (even if it's just knowing when to suggest contacing a BF counsellor). And that raises another issue of most of us not realising or expecting that to succeed we may need access to a particular kind of expertise we have to hunt for... which is where I do agree that normalising the experience of maybe needing to seek expert help is important. But that's a digression...

It's hugely frustrating - breastfeed past a certain point, and your experience is useless - after all, everyone knows there's this 'BF mafia', and if that's anyone, it's people who seem to know a lot about it - so you've got a catch-22 situation: the very people who may actually have the best practical information become, as a result of gaining that information, people who must be viewed with the most suspicion because they're assumed (whether or not they actually show this) to have some kind of underhand BF agenda and presumably to be insincere and only want to make people breastfeed because that's their ideology (bizarre). So it would be really nice if people who want to refer to a 'BF lobby' could define absolutely clearly who they mean, and what you have to do to qualify for this label. I think that, left undefined, it's more of a problem in itself, rather than any kind of useful term that might actually help to clarify things or help mums to breastfeed.

3andnomore · 21/01/2007 22:27

Fieflighty, what a brilliant post!

yellowrose · 21/01/2007 22:32

fireflighty - brilliant articulate post. i particularly like your argument re. bf mafia/lobby/terrorists

it is catch 22 - you are absolutley right. enthusiasm for bf can often get construed in a very negative light

moondog · 21/01/2007 22:34

Yeah great post.

I am always staggered at the view that these women (ie,bf counsellors),helping out (mostly for nothing and in their own spare time) have some sort of a weird and selfish agenda.

welliemum · 21/01/2007 22:40

Brilliant post fireflighty!

It would be nice to discuss bf without reference either to smugness or a mafia. Those terms really kill discussion don't they.

Kiff · 21/01/2007 23:00

Twinkle - your thoughts resonate with me.

I mixed fed for over 6 months. Was disappointed my local NCT could not put me in touch with a single mum who'd 'successfully' mixed fed (i.e. maintained supply).

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