Another article about how awful breastfeeding is, this time in a feminist publication

[Caligula]

I thought some of you would like to read this.

This misinformation bugged me:

"Times change though, and the formulas on the market are hopefully as close to what comes out of your boob, as they will ever be".

Wonder what the rest of you think

the new breastfeeding taboo

phew, kami, glad to hear that.

Sorry I can't post any more on this thread. Without giving offence.

Doubt if anyone's interested/wants to think about this but I'll have one last go.

I think there are a lot of analogies to be drawn between over-medicalised birth (as per Kitzinger et al) and over-medicalised breastfeeding (giving formula when the mother doesn't want formula).

For example, lying on your back in labour means that you're working against gravity, narrowing your pelvic outlet, etc.

There are people who will deliver quite easily lying on their back. There are others who will need interventions whether they're on their back, standing up, or doing star-jumps on the mantlepiece.

In the middle is the grey area. The evidence suggests that there are people who will need intervention if they're lying down, but won't if they're standing or squatting.

Well, I think what we have currently is a very breastfeeding-unfriendly system, akin to having women labour on their backs. Lots of separation of mum and baby, minimal skin contact, topping up with formula at the drop of a hat. Lack of confidence in breastmilk.

Some people in this system will just breastfeed easily no matter what. Some will never breastfeed, even with the best possible support.

But I suspect there's a grey area in the middle where creating a good environment is going to make a lot of difference.

Imagine a woman who is being told her baby MUST have a formula top-up because it's day 3 and her milk is still coming in and the baby is hungry (assuming the baby is well). That's a bad solution to a non-problem.

Because of all the topping up, her milk supply never gets well established and within a few weeks she's fully ff and devastated. That's a terrible outcome from an unnecessary complication.

So you have a non-problem treated with a bad solution, leading to an unnecessary complication which has a terrible outcome.

Surely the best way forward is to get this right from the start, rather than crisis management when it all goes pear shaped.

welliemum - what an excellent post. you have put it better than most of the other posts i have ever read here - well done

i think you are right about over-medicalisation of labour too. i know for a fact that if i had been put on my back ds would not have been born naturally which is why i refused to give birth in a hospital

Quite Wellie.
Proactive rather than reactive measures.
The same could be said about a lot of what goes on in the NHS actually,and I work in it.

moondog - may i ask what kind of work you do in the NHS ? don't say if you don't wish of course

I'm a salt.

oh that's interesting. is that to do with speech ?

Yes,speech and language therapist,so pertaining to all communication issues,or lack of.

absolutely superb analogy, wellies!

Ah, the dear old NHS, how I miss it. Not.

The breastfeeding situation in NZ is better, but not all that much better. A quantitative rather than qualitative difference.

Labour options are good though - maybe you should emigrate yellowrose. My MW thought I was a stick-in-the-mud fuddy duddy because I only wanted an active labour and birth with no analgesia! No problems with doing this in hospital.

Thanks for kind comments, but it's a bit obvious, isn't it?

Hard to say whether that sort of approach would have helped the author of the OP article, but it might have.

wellie - i have heard bf rates in aus. and nz are much better than here, is that true ? i have often felt i wanted to live abroad one reason being the NHS

i was very lucky to find a birth centre in north london were i had ds - one mw was excellent and very kind - others not so great but i love what they do there any way - but most NHS trusts are bust and closing birth centres down

fewer birth centres = fewer options to go for non-med. birth = less likley to get bf going properly - that's how i see it any way

"Lots of separation of mum and baby, minimal skin contact, topping up with formula at the drop of a hat. Lack of confidence in breastmilk." I didn't have any of that Welliemum and it didn't work out for me I'm afraid.

I'm afraid the dismissive attitudes sometimes displayed on this thread in response to genuine and very serious problems have worn me out. If breastfeeding rates are going to improve it's not just "society" that has to change, believe me.

You all bemoan the low breastfeeding rates but many of you offer little support and understanding to those who have tried so hard but haven't been able to succeed. Like KZ I'm afraid I have to leave the thread as I am getting increasingly frustrated at talking to the same brick wall. You lot carry on discussing your idealistic scenarios and I'll go back to the real world and join the other "failed" breastfeeders.

twinkle - at the risk of pissing you off even more than i did on a previous thread i think it is unfair to tar all the bf mums here with the same brush

i thought wellie's post in particular was very well-written, objective and totally non-alienating

you said on a previous thread that you had had huge amounts of pain when bf and have only recently found out that your baby has tongue tie which was not properly diagnosed at birth - this is very upsetting and quite understandable that YOU did not fail but had difficulties right from the word go due to bad advice

so why the bitterness when someone like wellie comes along and says something really intelligent and valid ? she is not talking about undiagnosed tongue tie, she is talking about situations where just a little bit of common sense and support from the health profs. in a non-threatening and non-medicalised environment can make a heck of a difference to getting bf kick started

what she says is in fact supported by research - so why shoot the messenger ?

What would you suggest then Twinkle?

I'd say lack of support at home is a MAJOR factor in low bf rates.

i agree with that expat

Yes Expat,I agree.
Thoughtless words from parents and spouses can really mess it up.
I've seen it with friends.

Not just that, but HELP, REAL help w/getting it established in the wee hours of the morning, when you want to give up.

Help w/the other young children you have at home - how are you supposed to stay in bed all day w/a newborn getting it all established when you have one or two other young children at home and your husband is at work and all your family are miles away or unable to help?

Who cooks and cleans and does hte washing for everyone when, again, the father has to go to work and the woman has NO help?

Twinklemegan, before you leave, I have to say that I find that post completely baffling. I am tired of being told that I don't understand. Please then, help me to understand.

I would appreciate it if you would clarify the following:

1. "Lots of separation of mum and baby, minimal skin contact, topping up with formula at the drop of a hat. Lack of confidence in breastmilk." This wasn't what scuppered your breastfeeding, but it has done for a hell of a lot of other people. Why are you so resentful of my pointing this out? Why would it be better not to point this out?

1. Why are the measures I mentioned (eg skin-to-skin) "idealistic"? That is the way mothers have been breastfeeding for thousands of years. It is normal and in countries where this is practised along with good support, breastfeeding rates are in the 90 percents.

1. Where have I ever said that everyone is able to breastfeed and if they didn't they must have done something wrong? In fact, has anyone ever said this in the history of mumsnet?

3b. Why is it "dismissive" and "displaying a lack of understanding" to say that with better support, some women who couldn't breastfeed, might have been able to? Why do you experience this general statement as a personal attack?

1. The most important question: You had a bad experience with breastfeeding and you are still hurting. There are many, many people who had similar experiences, and sadly, many still to come. What, in your opinion, ought to be done to save those future mums from having a similar unhappy experience? What are you going to do about it?

Because that's the bottom line for me. We can sit around navel-gazing to the end of eternity and it will do nothing whatsoever to improve things. What on earth is the point.

I had a particular sort of bad experience with breastfeeding. The months of agonising pain were almost completely avoidable, had I had the right help. It would make my day, my week, my year if the insights I gained could help even 1 person to avoid going through what I went through.

We all have our story to tell. We have, collectively, a huge amount of real-life practical experience here. We know how completely crap the system is. We are better placed than almost any health professional to have an opinion on what ought to be done.

I am trying here to be part of the solution instead of shrugging my shoulders and leaving future mums to suffer Groundhog Day. I really resent being told I am not living in the real world.

expat, I agree...the responsibility of supplying bf councellors should not be lying with BF organisation, it should lie within the NHS, maybe if bf councellors would be trained and then also paid for working shifts, etc...then the support would be a rounder one!
Also, the other point you are making is very valid, and that is a thing of soceity today, everyone is very private nowadays, and of course often familysupport with the chores is rarely possible.
When es was born my mum came over for a very looooooooooong visit, which gave her a great bond wiht es of course, but really helped me soooo much, because she did all teh chores and I just had to do Babycare, well, and of course she took that over at times too, when I was having a lie down....it was fabulous, but a lot of people said things like: I wouldn't want that, having a Baby is a private thing, and the first few weeks it should just be you and your hubbie with the Baby...." Just goes to show what a shift there has been within our society....this sort of support used to be the norm after childbirth...!

God yes,3andmore.
In most of the countries I have lived in,half the extended family move in when a baby is born.
Even my grandmother (skivvy by today's standards) had a week permanently in bed and a woman to help for a month afterwards.

Wise words Wellie.

Just an oppinion: I believe that lots of people give up BF because it is just too emotionally stressful. Info is soooo biased in favour. I think that if people were given a more realistic image of what it would be like, they are more likely to be prepared. As it is, people have to discover that it can be very difficult at a time when they are exhausted and emotionally vulnerable!

I wish I had been given more accurate information and have fed back to my antenatal classes that this could have been an improvement.

I am still BF at 3 months and HATE it when ff mothers feel they have to make excuses. 'No wonder they're ff' I always think, - It's Bl**dy difficult - even for me and I've had an easy time (hungry baby, iron nipples, good supply). Perhaps if they had been told the truth and had time to mentally prepare they might have managed it for longer.

Sorry, - rant over!!!

Be interested to hear whether anyone agrees.....

More often than not, too, it's just not possible for help to come for long periods, what w/people working longer and longer hours, moving away from home, spouses going back to work right away - to pay the cost of living, etc.

And then there's space.

A lot of people live in very small living spaces here, already overcrowded. To have someone move in to help isn't feasible.

And the weather isn't condusive to the outdoors being an extension of home.

I think all these factors are REALLY valid ones.

I know two ladies expecting their third children, and they won't be bf'ing b/c it's just not going to be possible for them to have the help around w/their other young children and spend the time needed to establish bf.

One has an SN child who's 4 and a 3 year old, so they're not in full time education. Her husband works away a lot and can only take two weeks off.

The other also has a husband who works full time and 2 children ages 4 and 2.

One has a mother nearby, but she has to work fulltime.

The other has no family nearby.