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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Original poster

Another article about how awful breastfeeding is, this time in a feminist publication

560 replies

Caligula · 10/01/2007 15:06

I thought some of you would like to read this.

This misinformation bugged me:

"Times change though, and the formulas on the market are hopefully as close to what comes out of your boob, as they will ever be".

Wonder what the rest of you think

the new breastfeeding taboo

OP posts:
welliemum · 18/01/2007 22:07

Don't they have a system in the Netherlands, where someone comes to your home after the birth and does all the cooking and cleaning for a while?

fortyplus · 18/01/2007 22:27

I know it was standard for the mum to stay in hospital for 10 days following the birth back in the early 60's. At least that what my mum said.

fortyplus · 18/01/2007 22:28

Mind you - she still didn't bf - wasn't fashionable in those days!

Twinklemegan · 18/01/2007 22:35

Welliemum - my post wasn't aimed at you. It was the result of pent up frustration at many posts from myself and others like me on this thread seemingly being glossed over. I had a bad day at work and perhaps got a little over zealous - must be careful not to take out stress on here.

But I was making a serious point - I'm afraid that some successful breastfeeders do come across as being rather smug and belittle other people's problems, whether they mean to or not. There have been a few classic examples on this thread. One that springs to mind which really annoyed me was comparing a man's pain at not being able to ease his partner's suffering to a woman being annoyed at not being able to pee standing up, FGS!

Incidentally, Welliemum, I started a whole thread a while back on how to keep more women breastfeeding for longer and how some changes to the way it is promoted could help with this. There were a lot of posts, for and against, and it was a very interesting debate. Believe me I am very concerned to do something and I too don't want other women to go through what I've been through. But you know many of us find the breastfeeding lobby, for want of a better expression, really rather intimidating.

Sorry I shot my mouth off a bit.

Twinklemegan · 18/01/2007 22:38

Just re-read my troublesome post. I think I should have divided it. The first half was addressed to Welliemum, the rest was regarding the thread as a whole - sorry if it came over differently. Yellowrose - you haven't pissed me off - you're quite right.

welliemum · 18/01/2007 22:41

Sorry, going back a bit: YR, the figures I have in my head for NZ bf are:

approx 80% of women breastfeed overall
65% fully bf at 6 weeks

"fully bf" means no formula in the previous 48 hours.

Anyone know the corresponding UK figures?

welliemum · 18/01/2007 22:43

That's fine Twinklemegan

kamikayzed · 18/01/2007 22:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Twinklemegan · 18/01/2007 22:51

I hope so Welliemum as I'm really quite now. That's not to say I didn't mean what I said about some of the posts on this thread but I could have put it a little less forcefully I think.

welliemum · 18/01/2007 22:58

Aha, thanks kami

So that's

initiate breastfeeding
71 % UK
93.8% NZ

4-6 months
29% UK
56% NZ

Big difference. But the difference is greater at 4-6 months, which suggests to me that the promotion of bf to pregnant women is fairly similar, but the major difference is in the ability of support to keep it going long term.

welliemum · 18/01/2007 23:01

Agh, I'm talking rubbish. The proportions are not that different.

Aloha · 18/01/2007 23:08

But lots of people do choose to formula feed! I have said further down on this thread that some people have no choice, but other people do choose.
I had to get help with breastfeeding twice. I've had mastitis, I've had poor latch, I've had a sleepy baby. I've been told I was starving my newborn baby (and that bloody hurts, I tell you. YOu should have seen the state I was in). I know there are women out there who are forced to formula feed against their will by ignorant and nasty NHS staff - like me.

moondog · 18/01/2007 23:09

Beth,I'm not sure about that.Yes,b/feeding is hard (I know form personal experience but I think many people-and by no means all-give up to easily)We are a society that demands instant gratification and the time and patience needed for successful b/feeding aren't willingly taken on by many.

Expat,I don't see that your examples hold water necessarily.I b/fed my second with no d/h or family around and a house move and a three year old to contend with.
It was hard,but then again,having a new baby is hard.

Twinklemegan · 18/01/2007 23:09

OK I'm still here after all and will now try to be more constructive again. Those figures are really interesting. I think I made the point in the thread I mentioned that the figures suggest that the message about breastfeeding is generally getting through OK. As you rightly say WM the main problem seems to be the ongoing support. I think many people on here have said that it might help for women to be given a slightly more realistic view of breastfeeding at the beginning so that the problems don't come as so much of a shock. That's what I was getting at in my other thread. I also commented that the purist approach isn't always that helpful as it can make vulnerable women feel that if they don't make the grade, so to speak, they might as well give up altogether. But I shan't bang on about all this as it's been said before - just wanted to make some constructive comments.

welliemum · 18/01/2007 23:10

No worries TM (as they say round here)

Aloha · 18/01/2007 23:16

I certainly think that when breastfeeding is very difficult and especially when the latch has been addressed by a PROPER lactation specialist, then tongue-tie and problems with milk production such as being on medication or retained placenta should be looked into. The problem is that the answer is always, 'give them a bottle'. I felt formula was absolutely forced on me with my ds. I am still quite angry and regretful about that five years later. I was still upset about it three years when I had my second child and it brought it back to me. I think the villains of the piece are not this 'breastfeeding mafia' but the bloody formula-mad mafia, who think a bottle is answer for every baby and who are so ignorant about common breastfeeding problems, including tongue tie. I was so shocked by how painful breastfeeding dd was but saw a fabulous and, apparently, famous breastfeeding expert who sorted me out almost instantly. The difference was so small I know that no ordinary midwife or HV would have seen it, but it was night and day for me. I can quite understand how someone who couldn't or didn't know how to access that support would just give up. Mastitis made me very ill.

welliemum · 18/01/2007 23:20

OH - I keep cross-posting (am multitasking here)

I think one answer to the purist problem (ie that if too enthusiastic you might put some people off altogether) is to have support that's flexible and tailored to each individual.

So one person might feel very strongly that they don't want any formula at all; they need help to achieve that, eg how to up their milk supply for exclusive bf.

Another person might feel that the best solution is to mix feed; they need help to achieve that, eg how not to compromise their milk supply so they can keep the mix stable.

The trouble with an underfunded support system is that for lack of time, training and personnel they will keep banging on with the same message regardless of a woman's individual circumstances.

mozhe · 18/01/2007 23:40

I think people should feed their babies in the way that they feel is best for them. I breastfed all three DSs for two years each,( there was a fair amount of overlap ! ), my twin girls of 8 months are fully breastfed still. Breast is best on all sorts of fronts BUT if it is not what you want to do then don't do it...no child in the west died of formula feeding,( though they do in the developing world..). I never had any problems, and find it incredibly convenient,( even all the expressing at work..), so for me it wins hands down.Things are often easier if you go with what you feel is right for you....so although an 'ardent breastfeeder ' myself I fully support the woman in the article.

Aloha · 18/01/2007 23:54

But if they don't have support they won't be able to feed their babies in the way they think best.

welliemum · 19/01/2007 03:57

Agree, Aloha.

So, 71% of women in the UK give bf a go. 4-6 months later, 29% (of the total) are still at it.

That means that 42% - nearly half of all women who deliver a live baby - start breastfeeding but don't carry on.

Is this their choice? Maybe for some, yes, but reading the threads here, I very much suspect that people who choose to start and then choose to stop before 4-6 months are in the minority.

What's the annual birth rate for the UK? Multiply that by 40% and you get a lot of people who probably aren't feeding their baby the way they feel is best.

moondog · 19/01/2007 08:09

I know we always bang on about how fantastic b/feeding rates are in Scandinavia as compared to UK,but I wonder what it is that they do differently.

More post-natal support or what?

Yes,that sudden drop in figures is incredibly worrying. it tells us that most women really do want to breastfeed but for some reason,aren't able to do so.

It's a bloody disgrace,isn't it?

yellowrose · 19/01/2007 08:57

twinkle - oh good - i am glad you are happier now with what some were trying to say - also if a so-called "successful" bf mum talks about her experiences, please do NOT take it as smugness - she is just talking about her PERSONAL experiences whether good or bad

i find bf a very emotional issue and many of the stories here make me angry and upset - angry because i KNOW most health profs. we have to deal with are rubbish and undermine us - i honestly do see bf as a woman empowerment issue not just as a set of statistics although we need to see the statistics in order to know the truth !

i had many many problems and crap support and just like moondog absolutley no one around to help - apart from DH and he can't bf

i also agree with wellie that MOST bf mums who post here are trying to look for solutions to help other mums avoid the pitfalls

these threads are very important twinkle, please don't leave them

yellowrose · 19/01/2007 09:08

moondog - i have never been to scandinavia, but from what i hear they have excellent maternity rights (which helps put less pressure on mum to go back to work after a few months) and lots of support for mums who DO go back to work but wish to be close to their children during work hours to feed them (i.e creche facility right next to your office so you don't even have to express milk, you just go and bf your baby in your break !)

i have just read somewhere that Germany is offering parents of newborns (any child born after 1 Jan. 2007) £17,000 per baby because Germany has a declining birth rate -Austria has similar incentives - ok so it's to help people have more babies, but i bet it helps with getting bf established too

why don't we get the sort of financial support these countries get after having a baby ? - i know i was very upset for a long time that we would become so poor once i had left work that we would have to scrape money togther just to buy food to eat - that is the sort of stress the parents of a newborn do not need

BBWBabeLisa · 19/01/2007 11:00

I've been looking into what the entry requirements are for training as a bf counsellor, and was really disappointed to see that you must have "successfully" bf for 6 months for one organisation to consider training you, and 4 months for another. I think it'd be helpful for some of us who struggled on for months unsuccessfully to be trained, as we're more equipped to know about the potential problems. Personally I spent 9 weeks expressing every 2 hours, trying to get DD to latch every feed, giving what little I'd expressed etc, but apprently that makes me ineligible to be trained to help other mums in similar positions. Really frustrating, as having been there myself theres nothing I'd like more than to be trained to help ensure other women don't struggle alone like I did. If anyone knows of an organisation that I could try please let me know.

DaisyMOO · 19/01/2007 11:23

Could you try appealing to them Lisa - say I know your requirements are 6 months (or whatever) but I had lots of problems and struggled on for 9 weeks. I don't see why someone who had a relatively easy time is going to make a better counsellor than someone why was so committed to b/f that they perservered long past the point when most people would've given up.