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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
julienetmum · 03/01/2007 20:40

We are very lucky in that our branch's two current bfc's are both NHS health professionals and last year both qualified as lactation consultants.

Having two in one area out of only 200 in the country must be rare.

julienetmum · 03/01/2007 20:41

There is excellent b/f support near to me for those who know how to support it

I meant for those who know how to access it

Pruni · 03/01/2007 20:41

Message withdrawn

Pruni · 03/01/2007 20:43

Message withdrawn

NotQuiteCockney · 03/01/2007 20:50

We do ok in our area - two of the midwives at the main local hospital are BFCs, I have two seasoned BFCs teaching the BF portion of my antenatal classes (am local CBC, hence my attempts to lure harpsi), and we have two fresh ones starting teaching the BF portion of antenatal classes, too (all BFN).

Oh, yes, obviously, Pruni, you could just attend a BF class, or visit the local BF drop ins.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 20:54

That makes me think I have no idea who we have here (moved since last time, bridgwater a hotbed of ABM support). Must find out should I become PG again, have a bad tendency to panic with my own (although good cause- ds1 went down to 4lbs something. we know now he's sn but not at the time).

Good idea Pruni to check that out BEFORE I need anybody! Thanks

kamikayzed · 03/01/2007 20:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AitchTwoOhOhSeven · 03/01/2007 20:58

pruni you are in edinburgh are you not? it's glasgow, i know, but the Queen Mum's has a unit devoted to bfing. the only one in the country, fgs. the women are very cool and while hands-on is great they will also speak to you over the phone and frankly, because they see so many spooky 'wtf?' referrals from docs and bfing experts at other hospitals they have an amazing bank of anecdotal knowledge of drug and other medical condition interactions.

i take it that there would be ethical issues with running trials into adverse effects on bfing so it's an area with no research.

my consultant (who i LOVE) at the hospital where the baby was born had searched all the literature exhaustively for a problem with this medicine (actually commonly used in pregnant women) and was MORTIFIED when i told him what the women at the QM said.

they get the women through the door, you see, so they can draw conclusions that if they've had 40 people on x medication with poor supply and no other complicating factors and a huge desire to bf, it suggests a link. when i came off the drug my bf supply improved a good bit...

my lovely doctor was so embarrassed about the hole in his knowledge that he is now encouraging one if his students to put figures together for a thesis...

anyway, if in doubt when the time comes you could try the queen mum's... if she can't help then maybe she can suggest someone in Auld Reekie?

and daisymlaisy, sorry that you are feeling so 'got at', that's a horrible feeling... i'm certain that you do your absolute best for your clients but because people google for advice and find mumsnet through archived threads on search engines it is terribly important that the information is bang-up-to-date and seen to be coming from reputable sources.

IlanaK · 03/01/2007 21:02

Pruni, I am delighted you said that. I have been away from the computer all day and came back to this tonight to catch up. Tiktok, I think you are amazingly patient (beyond what I could have been) to stay with this. And I am sure that nothing any of us say will ever change daisymlaisy's mind. However, what I hope can come out of this is that the mothers reading it can more fully understand the differences in training, and the importance of knowing who is giving you information. If this has enlightened even one person (just borrowing your word Pruni), then it may not have been in vain.

tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 21:04

I actually don't think this thread is too bad - I think everybody as been fairly civilised and there is a wealth of information, knowledge, experience and humour. Daisy, I hope you aren't feeling too got at - it's pretty good going on a maiden visit to MN to get 400+ posts!

yellowrose · 03/01/2007 21:12

I have read bits of this thread with fascination. I am a qualified lawyer (not an imposter ! please don't look me up on the Law Society Roll, I am defo. not on it as I no longer "practice" as a lawyer !), but I do find it strange that any one has to bring their paper qualifications into any sort of discussion.

In my experience, qualifications say diddly about how GOOD a professional really is !

I say this as someone who has come across all kinds of dodgy qualified people all my life, be it a lawyer, an electrician, a GP, a midwife, a dentist, a plumber, a teacher, even one or two qualified bf advisers.

In my view, the best kind of profs., in particular those working in the so called "caring" profs., are those who combine a qualification (some thing to stick on the wall !) with PERSONAL experience plus a genuine interest in their work, plus up to date knowledge plus kindness plus INTEGRITY. Difficult to find in all individuals, but they do exist.

I think bf advice (whether amateur or professional) is particularly tricky, as there are so many emotions involved.

But I do admire ANYONE who finds bf such an important issue that they are willing to volunteer their time to help others. I think it is a very worthwhile cause [smiel]

morningpaper · 03/01/2007 21:13

Gosh what a thread!

All midwives and Health Visitors in my area have been on the UNICEF course. Having seen friends stagger through the mountains of work on the ABM and NCT breastfeeding counsellor training, I would be HORRIFIED at one of my local "graduates" from the UNICEF course comparing themselves with those who have spent YEARS of their lives learning the NCT/ABM courses, which have turned them into FABULOUSLY WISE breastfeeding counsellors.

It's like someone going on a weekend course in listening skills and calling themselves a "counsellor". It might be technically not a lie, but it is rather misleading.

yellowrose · 03/01/2007 21:16
Smile
tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 21:16

morningpaper am I right in thinking you had a biting baby recently? Can you have a look here please and tell me what happened with you? Thanks!

tiktok · 03/01/2007 22:10

maisym asked me about my insurance situation. I have made it no secret that I am an NCT breastfeeding counsellor here, though I am anonymous (of course mumsnet towers has my full personal details!!).

I am insured wherever I am This talk board would be an especially safe place, I suppose, as what I say exists forever in cyberspace (unlike a phone call or a personal encounter where it would be my word against someone else's). I can't give medical advice - but if I did, and someone followed it, and was damaged (or damaged their baby), then I suppose I could be sued and NCT would pick up the tab (the insurance exists for things like this - but I don't think any NCT bfc has ever been sued and AFAIK the premiums are not high).

For many years, I have handled letter and email enquiries about breastfeeding which come to NCT, and the insurance covers this - I don't see much difference, though a talkboard is more public. I don't think someone can sue me just if they think I was mistaken - there would have to be some damage, and we don't give 'advice' as such so this part of your question does not apply.

You say I 'shouted down' daisymlaisy - no, I didn't. Not once. I asked her not to call herself a breastfeeding counsellor.

You are right - you have no way of knowing for sure if I am an NCT breastfeeding counsellor. This is the internet. Anyone can pretend to be anyone. You just have to be grown up and make a judgement for yourself how seriously you take what I say!

tiktok · 03/01/2007 22:18

yellowrose, you make an interesting point. Does it matter what paper qualifications a person has, if their skills are poor? Paper qualifications may not mean anything, after all.

I agree. The trouble arises when people use their paper qualifications as a way of justifying poor skills or poor information - sort of 'I must be right because I am a qualified pheasant plucker and I have achieved the pheasant plucker certificate (advanced) so you can't tell me nuttin' 'bout pheasant plucking, so get knotted!' and they close their minds to any new, different or more effective way of pheasant plucking, because the way they were taught has to be the only way to do it......

julienetmum · 03/01/2007 22:25

Quote "The trouble arises when people use their paper qualifications as a way of justifying poor skills or poor information - sort of 'I must be right because I am a qualified pheasant plucker and I have achieved the pheasant plucker certificate (advanced) so you can't tell me nuttin' 'bout pheasant plucking, so get knotted!' and they close their minds to any new, different or more effective way of pheasant plucking, because the way they were taught has to be the only way to do it......"

Which of course is less likely to happen if said pheasant plucker had a regulatory body who monitored his work and who customers who felt that their pheasants had been butchered rather than plucked could go to.

Believe me, anonymous talk board or not I would be on the phone tomorrow to NCT UK Office if I saw someone professing to be one of their bfc's giving out dumb advice (of course I would get my opinion that it was dumb advice checked out first)

maisym · 03/01/2007 22:27

tiktok & julinetmum - still find it odd that the nct insurance covers advice given on an internet talk board!!! If people want nct advice they can contact the nct on its support numbers.

There is lots of training in the nct bfc course in how to give support. I hadn't noticed any training/continued development on supporting on internet talk boards - but of course I could be wrong on that?

On other sites there are professionals who give advice but on mumsnet its anon and it's up to the reader if they believe what's written here.

It's a free for all here and think it a bit rich for tiktok to complain when others call themselves bfcs.

hunkermunker · 03/01/2007 22:29

Maisy, are you implying Tiktok's impersonating an NCT bfc?

yellowrose · 03/01/2007 22:32

Some of the worst bf advice I have ever received were from a NCT adviser, a gp, an hv and my midwife (not necessarily in that order !).

On the other hand, the best advice I have ever received has been from mothers with zero qualifications, but lots of personal experience. In fact the reason I have been able to bf for the past 2.5 years has been entirely due to a friend (with no qualifications) plus kellymom.com and other internet websites.

I am of the view that even the best qualifications in the world and 30 years' of experience in a given field do not necessarily make any individual good at anything (my prime target here being my own female GP !)

As dangerous and damaging as it is that someone who isn't qualified pretends that they are, I think it may be equally damaging for a bf mother to rely entirely on the expertise of the first qualified bf adviser she comes across. I know it would have been a disaster in my case if I had relied on the first (NCT) bf adviser I ever had to contact, because it turned out she was plain wrong.

Like anything in life it is best never to rely just on one source, but to get info. from as many sources as possible.

maisym · 03/01/2007 22:32

not saying that at all hunker - not in anyway.

Just found her complaining at the op for saying she was a bfc out of order on a free for all site.

also saying she's nct it brings into question liability - but Tiktok & Julnetmum say that the nct covers this - I'm not sure on this. This is my point.

julienetmum · 03/01/2007 22:34

NCT insurance covers negligence on the part of its bfc's and other specialist workers however that negligence is caused.

I don't know about the specific training bfc's are given, they have tutorials, study days etc on all manner of subjects and situiations. When I used to get the lists through the mind boggled.

The NCT and other b/f organisations move with the times. As a new but second time mum (and note I was secretary of my local branch at the time) I found it incredibly hard to pick up the phone to call the helpline on an occasion when I felt I needed support and my local bfc was away for a few days on a course.

How much more difficult will a first time mum who is maybe not very good on the phone find it to make that call. Some women (and I am one) find email and the internet much easier, often someone like tiktok will urge the poster to contact a bfc in person as I assume there is no substitue for talking to someone irl but you reach people wherever and however you can.

julienetmum · 03/01/2007 22:36

And as I often see calls for bfc's to help with the NCT website email queries I expect there is some training for this work.

maisym · 03/01/2007 22:38

thanks for clarifying the insurance point julietnetmum - still find it surprising though.

internet is perfect for supporting - but mumsnet isn't part of the nct and likewise.

maisym · 03/01/2007 22:39

email is different to mumsnet though

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