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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
LittleSarah · 03/01/2007 19:29

My problem with the starter, main course, pudding analogy is that it doesn't work as well when talking about 'snackers' or babies who feed more often for less time. I think that could worry those mothers thinking their child is never getting 'pudding'. However with the hot tap analogy not only does it show how fore and hind milk are really the same and the milk slowly gets fattier it also shows that the milk in the breast will be fattier if there is less time between feeds. Hence putting mothers' minds at rest if they have a 'snacker'.

Hmmmm, I hope I got that all right.

My dd rarely fed for more than 10/15 minutes but gained weight no problem.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 19:31

Uphill feeding is good but doesn't woek for all babies (those with low muscle tone, for example, or low strength may struggle- again from my experience of a low bitrthweight baby).

maisym · 03/01/2007 19:33

tiktok - do you also mean that if a mother here claims your advice was wrong she can claim against the nct? Didn't know the nct offered this to its bfcs in an anon internet setting. Mumsnet doesn't make any statement about it's legal responibility on this board.

You have stated you are nct but don't think you can shout down other people saying they are bfcs when we can't know for sure you really are nct.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 19:35

I wasnt referring to an overabundant supply when talking about my watery boobs, btw.

Confused....? You will be

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 19:37

did you mean they just leaked in general?

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 19:42

Yes. They still do, occasionally, and DS is 20 months now and only b/feeds morning and night.

However, the leakage is much lower if DS is feeding, but for some reason I still leak up to a an ounce when expressing.

Cost me a fortune in breast pads, I can tell you.

tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 19:44

now i'm sure i could be a HV - no offence to any MN HVs - all i would need to say to any problem would be 'switch him onto bottles dear', and that's my hv for you! far simpler than all this uphill feeding/startermaindesserthottap stuff !!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 19:44

But, the first 6 months - bend over - leakage, see a baby - leakage, talk about b/feeding - leakage. A slightly longer gap than usual between daytime feeds - leakage.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 19:44

Im sorry but "uphill feeding" just keeps making me snigger

popsycal · 03/01/2007 19:45

VVV i am like you...

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 19:50

i think i may have read somewhere something about a muscle that stops the leaking (assuming it's not oversupply) and if that muscle is weak you'll leak. or too much of the hormone that causes let down? not sure though!

having just had a quick read on kellymom etc, i see several sources describing hindmilk as 'like a creamy dessert' BUT in no way in relation to it coming after a starter and main. just that it's fatty like a creamy rich dessert. maybe that's where the confusion lies.

Jalexandra · 03/01/2007 19:51

vvvQV, I was exactly the same with my ds. I just had to think about bfing or even see a baby and I would be leaking. I used to wake up drenched some mornings. He used to feed all the time sometimes for over an hour and put a pound a week in the early weeks
Totally different with dd though. Hardly any leakage and feeding for 10 mins every 3 hours. She was a very slow gainer.
Could genetics play a part? I have always put the difference down to this as I wasn't doing it anyh differently (to my knowledge).

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 19:53

Sounds like my HV! Actually she was on the Unicef course with me- along with two of my various MW's (actually they talked me into DS3 there LOL), and another of my ex MW's was taking the class! Was a little embarassing to be honest, and the HV kept nudging me and saying 'its not everything, BF, you know'.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 19:56

According to my paediatrician, genetics does play a part- my three were all vriable gainers (ds1 very slowly, ds3 slowish and ds2 is fits and spurts) and she said that some kids are simply programmed to feed more and gain more, and that to see of this is the case look at the family (DH's family are tiny)

There are of course always other factors- hormones, etc etc. But yes, genetics does play a part.

Place · 03/01/2007 20:07

Peachy - not sure what you mean... certainly no malice or negative vibes from me to you - sorry if you think I said something that sounded that way. Simply that I KNOW Carys and wondered if you and I were on the same unicef course that she taught in London?

NotQuiteCockney · 03/01/2007 20:13

I'm told there is a muscle stopping leakage. And it does seem to get stronger. With DS1 I had supply/weight gain issues (bad latch, shields, no feeding in first 30 hours ), but a fair amount of leakage. With DS2 I've barely had any, despite having no supply issues.

julienetmum · 03/01/2007 20:14

I am not an breastfeeding counsellor, I am a peer supporter and was until recently chair of my local NCT branch.

My understanding is that all NCT bfc's are covered by the NCT's insurance when giving out information (not advice) and support in the name of the NCT.

It is very doubtful that a mum on here would try and delve into finding out tiktoks personal details in real life but technically speaking she is covered by the insurance in whatever capacity she choses to work be it internet, telephone or face to face.

It is one of the reasons why tiktok left mumsnet for the duration of the A sponsorship as she felt she could not give out info in the name of the NCT whilst the site was being sponsored by a company who was against our SCRAP code.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 20:15

'Peechy.... I did the Unicef course too and don't recall being told I could use the designation of Breastfeeding Counsellor' after it - sorry! '

It was that quote, but all over now just a MN undestanding.

I tentatively know Cerys: she taught my course in cannington, ran the local ABM to where I lived and was my MW sometimes. Also, she was married to my sister's form tutor. So tentatively but she kept appearing iykwim? LOL.

maryhadaharpsichordyeahlord · 03/01/2007 20:16

sorry for hijack

NotQuiteCockney · 03/01/2007 20:18
Pruni · 03/01/2007 20:22

Message withdrawn

Place · 03/01/2007 20:22

Daisymlaisy. In order to avoid more confusion, would you be kind enough to answer tiktok where she says 'what are you doing to update your knowledge and skills'? I think it's really inportant for those giving advice or information to make sure that they read things such as JHL or JBM so they they are giving up to date evidence based information, or at the very least attending the BFI conference regularly.

And for my piece of mind - may I ask what country you did your 5 day course? and how was your local manager able to overide UNICEF and say that you didn't have to do the other 2 days? And what year you did the unicef course?

Thank you

NotQuiteCockney · 03/01/2007 20:28

From what I know, and what my local BFC friend tells me, the ones who do it for money in our neighbourhood are, effectively, cowboys.

I'd think your best option, if you really must pay for it, would be to maybe hire a postnatal doula who is great at BF? Or a private midwife? (That being said, my private midwife, who was lovely and all that, wasn't actually marvellous at BF. She was good, but not marvellous.)

But the actual best option is to get involved in BF support locally, and then you'll know all your local BF counsellors, and be able to call them for a casual chat if you want. (And pay them in baked goods, or childcare or something, or, hey, a donation to whatever charity they're with, if you feel guilty.)

Place · 03/01/2007 20:37

Pruni. I can see where you are coming from.

Basically the largest group of best qualified breastfeeding people in the country are the volunteers, who help on a voluntary basis (but one or two 'may' take 'private' work). But there are another much smaller group of more qualified people called IBCLC (International Board Certified Lactation Consultant). There are only around 200 in the UK and most work in hospitals, but around half as a guess will consult privately in visit your home. As an aside, a LOT of IBCLC's are also volunteer counsellors too, for example 10% of ABM counsellors are also IBCLC's too, and no doubt similar numbers in NCT etc too. An IBCLC has to have 'extensive' proven breastfeeding practice and education before she is allowed to even sit the exam - so many come through the volunteer route.

There are of course 'other' private breastfeeding 'whatevers' with possibly NO qualifications in that area.

Should you wish to hire an IBCLC a place to go would ge www.LCGB.org or www.ILCA.org for a listing, or you could contact your local volunteer to see if you could hire them privately. In this case the volunteer 'may' need seperate insurance to the orgs. ones.

Does that help?

julienetmum · 03/01/2007 20:38

There is excellent b/f support near to me for those who know how to support it but let me give you a little case history.

Experienced midwife applies for a job as a specialist b/f midwife which involves running baby cafes, manning a 24 hour helpline, visiting new mums who are experiencing problems, training peer supporters etc etc. She does the UNICEF course, is good at her job, gains lots of experience.

One of her colleagues is an NCT bfc. This midwife decides to train to further her knowledge, she goes to her local branch who say they will support her and she begins her training.

Just a few months down the line she said to me "I have learnt more in the first month of my NCT training than in all my years of working in the NHS as a b/f midwife"

She has been training for almost 2 years now, has I reckon another year to go, all this time she has been working in her job gaining the sort of experience daisym is talking about.

I know who I would prefer to support a new mum experiencing difficulties.