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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 17:36

I will most certainly agree to disagree.

I am very sorry to all of you I have upset, I most definately didn't mean to, I have learnt that internet forums are not for me, as I am not very good at getting my point across. I should never have attempted it, I got a little over excited I think when I came across this site and thought I could help others with my exp and knowledge, and quickly dived straight in without thinking at all about the etiquette and consequences of online counselling, which in hindsight was very wrong of me- so sorry.

I do stand by that fact that I am in as much right as tik tok to call myself a bfc and cannot apologise for this.

Regarding the information I have said, I believe it to be correct to the knowledge I have been given. In all honesty who can say its not right what I say,but tik tok is correct, we can't , no- one knows for certain which theories are correct in the medical world, we all believe what we were first told.

I will take with me some of your valid points, and I'm consistently improving my counselling skill, but yes I am far from perfect- but then who is.

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DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 17:37

we don't all believe what we were first told.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 17:40

Sorry can't CAt Place- here is what i was sending you:

Hi Place

Maybe we did the same course- who knows LOL! I did mine in Somerset (but don't live there any more, now in Wales)

I think you may have misread my posts, I DO NOT consider myself a Counsellor; when I give advice I always state that actually- and advise them to contact TikTok. I do give advice though; TikTok isn't always around, I usually am (note to self: must get life, )

I am very much aware of my limitations in BF management, I DO call myself a Mentor / Counsellor in other contexts, as that is my job title atm (woreking with disadvantaged schoolkids). But no, I have never, and will never, do so unless I take the appropriate training. Something i did look into, and might do one day.

Carys was also my MW with my first child for part of my pregnancy, lovely isn't she? I was very lucky.

Sorry if CAT-ing seemed a bit OT, its just I did think Daisy was wrong to claim BF COunsellor status, and I didn't want anyone to tar me with the same brush. Its probably a mistake caused by my typing, which I know is appalling.

best regards

hunkermunker · 03/01/2007 17:40

Did you read the link to kellymom about foremilk and hindmilk?

I'm a bit concerned you'll continue with your three course meal definition of how bfeeding works in real life - please don't.

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 17:43

may i also point out that several mums at the start of this debacle explained how they found the 3 course meal analogy entirely unhelpful, and that once they found the hot water tap analogy this was extremely reassuring.

but like you said daisymlaisy, you don't see the difference.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 17:44

"Regarding the information I have said, I believe it to be correct to the knowledge I have been given. In all honesty who can say its not right what I say,but tik tok is correct, we can't , no- one knows for certain which theories are correct in the medical world, we all believe what we were first told."

If we all believed what we were first told, and never opened our minds to new knowledge and information we would never progress.......

Daisy - its not about what you say vs what tiktok says.....

Daisy - please please please go and investigate the aspects of "advice" you have given that you have been told repeatedly by many more people than tiktok - is just not right. They aren't "theories" at all in some cases.....

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 17:46

Daisy, do you still have your BF file? Would int be worth looking it up again?

Another good read is the La Leche folder he;d by their BF Counsellors, which my MW lent me. Excellent material, I only used it in relation to my problems at the time (was before Unicef) but extrememly comprehensive if you know anyone you can borrow from.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 17:47

OK, daisymlaisy - I don't think you are gonna change your mind about being a bfc

You believe the stuff you have said to be correct 'to the knowledge I have been given' - I think this means you were taught this, and therefore you believe it to be correct. That's just naive, sorry - we can all learn new stuff and discard the other incorrect stuff. Having been taught something does not mean we can't ever change our minds about it. I certainly don't want to be included in your statement 'we all believe what we were first told' - I'd still be looking out for santa and the tooth fairy if that was the case! With regard to bf, I'd still be telling mothers to cure their sore nipples by air drying. I change my practice and improve my knowledge all the time.

You talk about bf knowledge and information as if it was just opinions, because no one can say 'which theories are correct' - just not true. There is research; there are studies; there are comparative programmes - it's up to you, as a professional breastfeeding counsellor , to have an open mind, to keep reading and thinking, to listen to others and learn from them....not to say 'this is what I was taught, and who knows who is right so I am not going to change.'

You can't really mean any of this - so maybe if you continue posting, you can think more carefully about what you write, preview your posts, and ask yourself, 'does this really reflect what I think?' and 'do I really mean to sound as prickly as that?' and then edit! I do this, whenever I am feeling a bit heated about something.

You called me patronising before, and I don't want you to think I'm being like that again, but you are new to internet forums, and I'm sharing my experience - no charge

Jalexandra · 03/01/2007 17:53

FGS leave the poor woman alone. You have made your points several times.
Daisymlaisy I hope you are OK and continue to post.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 17:56

For as long as the cause is making sure all mothers receive appropriate and up to date information/support on breastfeeding, I think I'll have to say NO, to that Jalex, no offence.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 17:58

This is directly quoted from the Unicef file we were all given, in relation to foremilk and hindmilk. I tjink it reinforces the tap analogy extremely well.

Its the basic definition on page 8 of my file.

' Foremilk is the milk that is produced early on in a feed, which may look watery and bluish in colour. Hindmilk is the milk that is produced later in a feed and looks denser and white. This part of the milk is particularly rich in fat and provides much of the energy of a breastfeed. Fore and hind milk do not suddenly appear. The fat levels in milk gradually increase throughout the duration of the feed. These words, therefore, descrive the milk at either end of the process of milk production'

I find that perfectly clear myself.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 17:58

How are you going to update yourself, daisymlaisy?

Serious question and I am not being unkind or provocative - if you really think the course told you 'everything you need to know and more' and the nursing background gives you all the counselling skills you will ever need, then there's probably not a lot you think you will need, but I don't think you really think that. Just 'doing the job' will not update you (though of course every mother teaches us something)....you need study time and learning time. NCT bfcs do a minimum 2 whole days a year at a study day, and I think it's prob the same for the other vol.orgs - and we get our asses kicked into gear (um, I mean we get a nice letter offering us support to meet the requirements )if we don't.

How's your ass going to be kicked into gear???

tiktok · 03/01/2007 18:02

Eeeek, peachy, I don't think that's quite right!!

I mean, it's sort of right, but it's still this idea of 'duration' being the driving force of the fat, and it can be (in that as the baby removes the milk, which takes time, the milk become progressively fattier) but it's not entirely the picture.

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 18:04

is there extra info in there peachy?

tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 18:05

tiktok, didn't you have something about women who fed for 2-3 minutes or so every 20 mins, so the milk was very fatty because the breast were emptyish?

SherlockLGJ · 03/01/2007 18:08

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took
But I do know that I trust Tik Tok
And she really makes BFing rock.

What a wonderful person she is.

tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 18:09

I so agree Sherlock!

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 18:12

if it weren't for tiktok, kellymom and the book my midwife told me to read (bestfeeding by renfrew, fisher and arms) i don't know where i'd be. i don't think i'd still be breastfeeding my nearly 8 month old anyway.

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 18:15

my theory translates like this:
startermaincoursepudding
goodgettingbetterbestpart thats how I explain it face to face, again not very good online

I can't find the kellymom theory is it really dislike this?

Jaleaxandra, thank you, but to be honest, no I'm not ok, and really suffering from this experiance, I've never experianced anything like this. Maybe Its because I'm hormonal 18 weeks pregnant! but getting really emotional. Again not a sympathy vote, as I know your all going to think it is.

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CorrieDale · 03/01/2007 18:16

Re: the fore and hindmilk thing. I have to say that Tiktok's explanation (given months and months ago) where she said about fatty deposits being attached to the milk ducts and then becoming part of the milk as the baby suckled it down made me sleep a lot easier at nights. DS was a 'snacker', to use my HV's horrible expression, and I was permanently anxious that he was never getting dessert because that was how my MW had explained fore and hindmilk in the antenatal classes. Once I'd learned about how it actually works (which seemed a lot more logical to me than having two sets of milk in the breast, which was how I had imagined it thanks to the meal analogy), I realised that he was pretty well always getting very fatty milk and there was nothing to worry about.

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 18:19

daisy- the kellymom link was put up towards the start of the thread. i assumed you would have read it then in order to understand what we were all talking about.

can you see how your 3 course meal analogy is unhelpful?

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 18:21

the link again

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 18:28

If you have your starter and maincourse and then take a short break and go back later you will just have the pudding

my theory is not too disimilar not worth 50 posts of knocking it- Kellymom is better I admit although they are both saying similar things and neither are wrong, many well respected brc use the 3 course analogy, I will try and remember the kellymom one.

Although I can assure you when i am telling mothers the 3 course analogy I explain it fully.

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PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 18:33

YOu know what? there doesn't seem to be anything else in the file, although the file is not comprehensive of all we were taught. The link made perfect sense to me, yet it may as likely have come from the extra reading (eg La Leche stuff) I have done, its ahrd to know where you got your stuff from isn;'t it?

But no, I can't find anything else in the fiule, but the file is only supposed to summarise and not stand alone, so I cannot say if its an ommission or just a summary assuming accurate remembering of a tutorial, iyswim.

DizzyBint · 03/01/2007 18:34

i hope you do remember it, especially reading all the posts on here from mums who found the hot tap analogy ended their fears that their baby wasn't feeding long enough to get their 'pudding.'

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