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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
Place · 03/01/2007 13:07

Why doesn't Daisym use her official letters after her name as her title such as 'rgn with special interest in breastfeeding' or 'NNEB (Nursery nurse) with special interest in breastfeeding', or 'Neonatal Nurse [not sure of the correct designation here, as I though a neonatal nurse with and additinal shorter course post registration as an rgn rather like paediatrics or orthopaedics), with special interest in breastfeeding'

Unlike the meer 'Breastfeeding Counsellors' on this thread, daism has at least well recognised qualification she 'could' use to outline her skills, I'm rather surprised that she choses not to use those, but those in use by 'custom and practice' of the volunteer organisations.

Peechy.... I did the Unicef course too and don't recall being told I could use the designation of Breastfeeding Counsellor' after it - sorry!

tiktok · 03/01/2007 13:09

Clair - the reason you felt belittled and like you shouldn't be offering bf support was because you only read half the sentence that quote was in!!

Can I take it you understand that my objection was solely to the way daisymlaisy styled herself? She made something of a point of saying she was a 'professional breastfeeding counsellor' and then proceeded to say some not very-breastfeeding counsellor-y stuff....and continued to stick to her guns all the way through not giving an inch, saying facts were opinions and all sorts!!

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 13:10

I dont think tiktok said it was bad teaching peachyclair.

And, i think the point that tiktok is trying to make, is, that if someone describes themself as a "Breastfeeding counsellor", and posts advice on breastfeeding, that advice wont be seen as an alternative opinion - it will be seen as medical fact iyswim?

Therefore, the very fact that daisym has posted things that are not 100% correct, or things that can easily misconstrued could be far more harmful or confusing than if she was "just another poster".

After all, if you asked for advice on the health threads, you dont expect doctors to hop along and advise you, however, if someone came along and said "You need to get some strong painkillers for that headache, and make sure you rest, in case its a brain tumour. I know this, because I am a doctor". How much more seriously are you likely to take it than if it was, say, me posting that?

tiktok · 03/01/2007 13:12

Mentoring experience and training will be a good thing to bring to breastfeeding counselling, PeachyClair. Good luck with it.

Place · 03/01/2007 13:14

Peachy - I did actually refer to Carys Grewcock but not by name, as a UNICEF trainer, much earlier in this thread, as a previous 'chair' of ABM, a breastfeeding counsellor, and previously an IBCLC Lactation Consultant and Midwife - so sure, she IS well qualified and teaches the UNICEF course bril - she taught the course that I was on too. Perhaps you and I were on the same course?!

tiktok · 03/01/2007 13:19

I think it's always possible that even the most brilliant teachers will end up at some point with a student who misunderstands - see my story about the NCT bfc who told her antenatal class they could not eat non-pasteurised cheese when bf (quite wrong). Fortunately, this was corrected, because the organisation keeps tabs on us!

This is why training is only a part of the story, and practice needs to be monitored and supervised.

It's the same with the counselling side of it. Every so often, a bfc will make a mess with a call - it happens to us all (including me). But there is a mechanism for reflecting on it with a supervisor and working out why etc.

AitchTwoOhOhSeven · 03/01/2007 13:54

oooh, tiktok... i just wrote a huge long post but i've lost it... gggrrrr, now i'll have to do it again.

i was saying how i saw about fifteen so-called BF-qualified nurses and hospital specialists and each of them spouted the same routine-based foremilk/hindmilk, 3 course meal business, none of which helped me as i was on a drug that was probably hampering my supply.

i asked Every Single One of them if it was harming my BFing and i was told no. i now realise that was because they Just Didn't Know Enough.

it was only when (after much stamping of feet) i accessed the only specialist BFing unit in my country that i found people who knew about the drug and its potential effects.

imagine my surprise when tiktok knew what i was talking about when i found MN. Imagine how different my BFing experience might have been if i'd spoken to her before... [wistful emoticon]

so as it happens i am now very, very choosy indeed about who i think is qualified to counsel people about bfing.

general training is fine, but if you aren't 100 per cent sure of the answer (as in 'might this drug be harming my supply?') or if you don't have the person right there in front of you, you need to choose your words very wisely indeed. people's mental and physical health is at stake. (or at least it was for me).

and if i'm honest then i'd have to say that i've found that medically-trained people are often so confident in their opinions and experience that they are less likely to say 'i don't know, let me go and research that for you' because they are so accustomed to being in a position of power. i do feel that to some extent daisymlaisy has demonstrated that here...

having said that, i hope she comes back soon as her experience as a BFing adviser/helper is interesting and valid. but i thank tiktok et al for challenging her, as i wouldn't like to think of people googling bfing and finding that advice left to stand.

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 15:05

Thank you jalexandra for supporting me. I'm not going to step down as I do believe any nursing counselling skills I learnt would be equivalent to what tik tok has learnt in her 3 years part-time training and I am just as equipped to counsel people as she is.

Tik tok will not accept this- why I don't know, as I have said many times before on here , she doesn't even know me , and the depth of my counselling experiance.

Breast feeding is like heart surgery like one poster said , and the Unicef course, covers everything you need to know and more, like peachyclair kindly pointed out and backed me up on how indepth it is.

Has anyone called Unicef? as I believe if you have counselling training from your nursing training/ midwife etc which is very extensive you are in your right to practice as a breastfeeding counseller after doing the unicef course. Don't forget I also learnt all medical sides to bf in my neo-natal training.

Thanks again jalexandra, but please be careful as if anyone is slightly in agreeance with me they will get shot down!!!

OP posts:
daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 15:06

correction - not like heart surgery!

OP posts:
hunkermunker · 03/01/2007 15:13
nothercules · 03/01/2007 15:17

Aww hunker I was going to do that . Sulks off....

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 15:20

yes me too Hunkermunke, I'm fed up of repeating myself

I can call myself a bfc, as I have had fantastic indepth education in breastfeeding and done extensive counselling in my nursing.

whether it 3 day or 3 years part-time, there is only so much you can learn about breastfeeding.

OP posts:
tiktok · 03/01/2007 15:22

daisymlaisy, I'm going to cut and paste here, as it's easier

" I'm not going to step down as I do believe any nursing counselling skills I learnt would be equivalent to what tik tok has learnt in her 3 years part-time training and I am just as equipped to counsel people as she is."

I have no idea if you are 'just as equipped' - you won't see anything in my posts that makes anything but a positive comment on the counselling skills you learnt as a nurse. I always accepted you had probably done some counselling skills. I only asked you not to call yourself a 'breastfeeding counsellor' - I read your posts to mothers asking about breastfeeding and recognised at once the non-counsellery language. I've always said you may be different face to face. But you are not a breastfeeding counsellor, whatever you call yourself and whatever nurse-based counselling skills you have done.

"Breast feeding is like heart surgery like one poster said "

I don't understand that, sorry!

" and the Unicef course, covers everything you need to know and more, like peachyclair kindly pointed out and backed me up on how indepth it is. "

The fact you are so confident it covers 'everything you need to know and more' rings alarm bells with me!!

It's a v. good course, as I have always said, but I am sure it is not designed to have you leave with the confidence that you know 'everything' - blimey!! Peachy enjoyed the course, found it useful, and hopes to go on to be a breastfeeding counsellor (a real one)....presumably because she does not agree with you that Unicef teaches you 'everything you need to know and more'.

" Don't forget I also learnt all medical sides to bf in my neo-natal training. "

daisymlaisy - a hint: don't big up the breastfeeding training of neo-natal nurses! It won't go down well here, and no one will believe you learnt 'all' about the medical side of it - have a heart! People are bound to be sceptical.

Here's a thought: How about a bit of modesty? I would never claim to know 'everything and more' about breastfeeding, and it does you no favours to use these expressions.

lulumama · 03/01/2007 15:29

daisy..

i made the point yesterday about learning from each other, and drew an analogy with the doula course i trained on

if i have said something INCORRECT , i have been corrected.... i am grateful for that, as i would hate to be in a RL situation and tell a client something incorrect..

I have learnt from those corrections, and am grateful for all the advice and support i have received from other doulas , that they have given.

they key is we can learn from each other! and should learn and never stop..and if we are wrong or misinformed or incorrect or whatever it might be...we can add that new and correct information to the knowledge we all hold

there are all sorts of wonderful advisors on mumsnet.....medically trained, lay people, volunteers , paid professionals...the key is

everyone shares their knowledge

we learn from each other

i know i have given other mumnstetters really good advice..they have told me so! and other doulas and midwives have backed me up! but if i want to take the praise, i take the corrections too !

i am lucky people have taken the time to support me and help me and nurture me !

and i am grateful for that

if i had leapt into the childbirth and pregnancy threads, calling myself a doula and giving out possibly incorrect info and then dismissing any other opinions, especially those of other established doulas, i would have got very short shrift...and rightly so.

it is not a competition, it is not about winning, it is about having access to the best correct information to help each other out.

we can never stop learning, breast feeding,like birth, is so personal and so emotive, that it need to be treated with respect as do the mothers involved

i am not saying this is what has happened,,but drawing an analogy with how this situation has arisen

tiktok and hunker in particular spend a lot of time posting here , giving fabulous support to b,f mums...they should be respected because of that...

and no, newbies should not be disrespected, but sometimes you have to show your credentials and let your advice be critiqued , so that you do become established

i;ve been here 5 months..i;ve had to show how i have come to where i am, why did i want to be a doula, what were my own births like, who did i train with, etc..and rightly so, as anyone could call themselves a doula and start giving advice, if it was unsafe, i would absolutely challenge it..

that is not a bad thing.....

tiktok · 03/01/2007 15:31

Thanks for your vote of confidence, Aitch

hunkermunker · 03/01/2007 15:31

Which Unicef course did you do? Can you remember the name of it?

lulumama · 03/01/2007 15:31

"whether it 3 day or 3 years part-time, there is only so much you can learn about breastfeeding."

absolutely disagree

same as if i said that there is only so much you can learn about birth

especially because the experience varies so much from woman to woman

and the emotional impact will vary so greatly from woman to woman too

DaisyMOO · 03/01/2007 15:33

Well said Lulu

lulumama · 03/01/2007 15:34

thank you , my lovely...feels like forever for me too!

tiktok · 03/01/2007 15:35

lulu - nice post. Yes, it's great to learn from each other and that's one of the reasons I like mumsnet.

Requirements are an open mind, an ability to face challenge without being prickly, and a realisation that there is never a time where we can say we have been taught 'everything we need to know'

lulumama · 03/01/2007 15:37

is it group hug time yet?

tiktok · 03/01/2007 15:40

at lulu

daisymlaisy · 03/01/2007 15:44

yes it was the 40 hour breastfeeding counselling course, although because I had covered alot of the medical aspects in my neonatal training I only had to complete 3 days out of the proposed 5.
www.who.int/child-adolescent-health/New_Publications/NUTRITION/Breastfeeding/Directors_Guide.pdf
sorry its taken me so long to post this, but I have put off aslong as possible, waiting for someone to accept I am entitled to be a breastfeeding counseller
Don't worry about apologies, just learn from your mistakes, do not judge people when you don't know everything about them, it is very wrong.

Any one of you who has judged me , could have looked up this information, and seen that unicef does a breastfeeding counselling course, but no-one did, as you were all too quick to critise me and put me down.

OP posts:
VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/01/2007 15:44

Absolutely Lulumama, that's exactly it.

Humility is an important quality in a professional, daisym, and folk would have far more respect for your 'qualifications' and experience if you could simply concede that you are indeed, another human being, who is willing to learn and expand on the knowledge that you are so willing to extol (as gospel).

hunkermunker · 03/01/2007 15:44

I am not a breastfeeding counsellor (I have never claimed to be either), but I have breastfed two babies for a total of two years and four months (and still going), have helped women in RL and on here where I know I can help (with advice about mastitis-prevention, for instance, or just plain encouragement that a perceived "problem" is in fact normal when I am SURE that is the case), read loads and loads, discussed bfeeding on here, but there is SO much I don't know and I would never assume that I knew it all.

What is dangerous is when somebody assumes that breastfeeding problems are solely solvable by "adjusting the latch" and "making sure you reach the hindmilk", for instance.

And if this thread hasn't convinced you, Daisymlaisy, that you don't know everything about breastfeeding, I don't know what will!

Please feel free to give advice on MN though, anyone is at liberty to do that and I am sure that you can make valid contributions all over the site because you are clearly experienced in your field. But if you make mistakes, or you refer to yourself as a breastfeeding counsellor and go on to make posts that contain mistakes or unclear wording, please expect to be pulled up on it.

It does the women who use MN a great disservice to let erroneous advice go unchallenged. I expect to be pulled up if I give incorrect advice - I learn from it, I don't get shirty about it (I get shirty about other things instead ). For instance, when I first posted on here (and it makes me to remember this) I said that the charts in the red books were based on bottlefed babies. What was I thinking?! But that was back when I trusted healthcare professionals to tell me the truth...