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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

tik tok

482 replies

daisymlaisy · 02/01/2007 10:01

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

OP posts:
tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 12:28

Having had struggles with all 3 of my children to establish b/feeding, with ds2 being the most tricky of them all, I had all sorts of advice for how to get them to start putting on weight. The worst came from 2 midwives who 'had done a breastfeeding course'. Their advice, at 8 days old, and losing weight, when ds2 was feeding every 2 hours at the least (by that I mean, no longer than 2 hours between feeds), topping up at every feed with EBM AND having a small (1-2oz) top up of formula (which he only had for a week or so), was to drop the evening feed altogether, as he was feeding all evening, and replace with a 6-7oz formula feed, thereby giving me time to replenish the milk!!!!! I intrinsically felt this was wrong, so ignored them, and asked them to get 'my' midwife to phone the following day, which she did, telling me that was very bad advice. I can see the logic, but it just doesn't work like that.

So I do think it's really important to know where your advice is coming from, and how much to trust it.

tortoiseshell · 03/01/2007 12:30

PS, after the first week or so we dropped the 1-2oz topup, and he was then eclusively b/fed till 6 months. Largely because of excellent advice on MN from tiktok, hunker and others. Without that, I do believe he would have been 100% f/fed after about 2-3 weeks, because he was a NIGHTMARE to get going!

Jalexandra · 03/01/2007 12:32

Tiktok, of course I care about people fraudulently using titles. Daisym has not done this in my opinion. She says she has a background as a nurse and has done a recognised course. Why isn't she a bf counsellor?

LittleSarah · 03/01/2007 12:32

So don't agree with that I'm sure you could learn everything about breastfeeding in three days comment... plus it is not just the technicalities of breastfeeding but the counselling and support aspect which is important, both of which I hope would take longer than three days to teach. I think many of the posters on this thread have proved that it does.

Listen daisym, I have read since I started at school, so basically I have had experience of literature for 20 years and experience of 'English literature' for about 10 years. I have read Shakespeare, Jonson, Virginia Woolf, Tolstoy, Yeats and all sorts of other 'big' names if you will in the literature world. However even if I spent two weeks on an English literature intensive course or even an eight week module I wouldn't equate my knowledge to those who have a degree in the subject just because I had already loads of books. I would assume that they would have been taught about these authors in far more depth, using many different literary theories because they had a lot more time to intensively study the subject of English literature.

Just as those who have done 2/3 year breastfeeding counselling courses have been intensively studying just that.

LittleSarah · 03/01/2007 12:34

Also I found breastfeeding fairly simple, but I am aware that there are many problems that I was lucky not to experience.

Jalexandra · 03/01/2007 12:40

X posted aswell tiktok. I look forward to finding out more.
It seems the issue here is not with daisym but rather within the bf counselling profession. Maybe all different groups should get together and come up with some rules and regulations they agree to abide to.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 12:44

Can I point out that whilst I agree that the ABM course is wortha lot more than the Un icef, as I said in my post and my experience has shown, its not simply a 2-3 day course- we did have to go away and complete a portfolio (admittedly small but still experiential nonetheless) showing wwe had supported and observed feeding. A substantial amount of the course was practical counselling too, and most iof us taking the course were in roles that included counselling (for example, when I took the course I was working for HomeStart as ano organiser, much of which involved directly supporting famillies myself- which was the idea behind Unicef, if I culd help a family I came across- well noteveryone is going to accept a referral or advice to call).

And yes, I did have appropriate supervision.

I never feel qualms about giving BFa dvice on here, sometimes I am the best 'qualified' (and you do geta qualification) persona rund, but I always defer to TikTok, advise poeple to puta shout out for her and I do mention that whilst I have Unicef I am by no means an expert.

I don;'t think Daisymoo should ahve referred to herself as a Counsellor HOWEVER the nature of Unicef is to get other professionals in the field equipped to support BF, and I think it is esceddingly valuable and DOES equip people to give much better advice than the average joe who does often have a lot of folklore in amongst the acrued knowledge. To completely write it off as worthless 9whch some poeple do seem to do) is a shame. Purely experiential- but I couldn't feed ds1 for allergy reasons, and I panicked with ds2 because I associated his weight issues with the ones DS1 had suffered 9although actually completely unrelated). The info I received on Unicef enabled me to deal with my fast letdown and feed ds3 until he was 15 months.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 12:44

Can I point out that whilst I agree that the ABM course is wortha lot more than the Un icef, as I said in my post and my experience has shown, its not simply a 2-3 day course- we did have to go away and complete a portfolio (admittedly small but still experiential nonetheless) showing wwe had supported and observed feeding. A substantial amount of the course was practical counselling too, and most iof us taking the course were in roles that included counselling (for example, when I took the course I was working for HomeStart as ano organiser, much of which involved directly supporting famillies myself- which was the idea behind Unicef, if I culd help a family I came across- well noteveryone is going to accept a referral or advice to call).

And yes, I did have appropriate supervision.

I never feel qualms about giving BFa dvice on here, sometimes I am the best 'qualified' (and you do geta qualification) persona rund, but I always defer to TikTok, advise poeple to puta shout out for her and I do mention that whilst I have Unicef I am by no means an expert.

I don;'t think Daisymoo should ahve referred to herself as a Counsellor HOWEVER the nature of Unicef is to get other professionals in the field equipped to support BF, and I think it is esceddingly valuable and DOES equip people to give much better advice than the average joe who does often have a lot of folklore in amongst the acrued knowledge. To completely write it off as worthless 9whch some poeple do seem to do) is a shame. Purely experiential- but I couldn't feed ds1 for allergy reasons, and I panicked with ds2 because I associated his weight issues with the ones DS1 had suffered 9although actually completely unrelated). The info I received on Unicef enabled me to deal with my fast letdown and feed ds3 until he was 15 months.

hunkermunker · 03/01/2007 12:44

Or maybe people who aren't breastfeeding counsellors could try not calling themselves breastfeeding counsellors.

I will try very hard not to set myself up as a nail technician in the meantime. It's proving hard though. I keep wanting to go onto style threads and offer advice about different techniques and problems with broken nails. After all, I've had nails since before I was born, so I must be qualified [flippant]

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 12:45

Can I point out that whilst I agree that the ABM course is wortha lot more than the Un icef, as I said in my post and my experience has shown, its not simply a 2-3 day course- we did have to go away and complete a portfolio (admittedly small but still experiential nonetheless) showing wwe had supported and observed feeding. A substantial amount of the course was practical counselling too, and most iof us taking the course were in roles that included counselling (for example, when I took the course I was working for HomeStart as ano organiser, much of which involved directly supporting famillies myself- which was the idea behind Unicef, if I culd help a family I came across- well noteveryone is going to accept a referral or advice to call).

And yes, I did have appropriate supervision.

I never feel qualms about giving BFa dvice on here, sometimes I am the best 'qualified' (and you do geta qualification) persona rund, but I always defer to TikTok, advise poeple to puta shout out for her and I do mention that whilst I have Unicef I am by no means an expert.

I don;'t think Daisymoo should ahve referred to herself as a Counsellor HOWEVER the nature of Unicef is to get other professionals in the field equipped to support BF, and I think it is esceddingly valuable and DOES equip people to give much better advice than the average joe who does often have a lot of folklore in amongst the acrued knowledge. To completely write it off as worthless 9whch some poeple do seem to do) is a shame. Purely experiential- but I couldn't feed ds1 for allergy reasons, and I panicked with ds2 because I associated his weight issues with the ones DS1 had suffered 9although actually completely unrelated). The info I received on Unicef enabled me to deal with my fast letdown and feed ds3 until he was 15 months.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 12:46

Jalex, if you read downthread you'll see the outline of the NCT bf course and the 'shape' it takes in terms of attendance, committment and output. All 4 vol orgs have a version of that, though not all require written assignments but they assess in other ways. I think this aspect of assessment is crucial, in fact - and it should be ongoing, post-qualification, by way of supervision and in-service training (in NCT you have to write a case study or a report of a class, in addition to that, which is assessed).

About a quarter of the course focuses on counselling skills, as they relate to breastfeeding. We use a particular school of counselling called 'person-centred' which is tried-and-tested by many bodies of people.

I do not call myself a 'counsellor' however, in the general sense (though I could....it's not illegal) because I have not done the study and assessment others have done to acquire this qualification. I would consider myself a fraud if I did, and I would worry that people would have expectations of me I could not fulfill.

I do use the counselling skills I use as a bfc all the time in other situations, though, and they are useful life skills

What I am saying is that in practice, if not in law, NCT and the other vol.orgs 'own' the title 'breastfeeding counsellor' and deservedly so, as they have all been in the vanguard of developing training and continue to work hard to ensure good quality, honest assessment and safe practice for mothers. Someone else coming along and using the name makes it unclear for mothers - and this matters a huge amount.

Frankly, on a personal level, I don't want someone like daisymlaisy giving out 'advice' on this board and getting it wrong (not just a different 'opinion', but wrong)...because it gives me and my organisation a bad name! Other people spotted the weaknesses in daisymlaisy's knowledge - it was not just me. She didn't 'talk' like a counsellor to other breastfeeding mothers, either - and I didn't like it, sorry! If people think that's what a 'breastfeeding counsellor' says and does, then it's not good for the 'real' ones

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 12:48

Can I point out that whilst I agree that the ABM course is worth a lot more than the Un icef, as I said in my post and my experience has shown, its not simply a 2-3 day course- we did have to go away and complete a portfolio (admittedly small but still experiential nonetheless) showing we had supported and observed feeding. A substantial amount of the course was practical counselling too, and most iof us taking the course were in roles that included counselling (for example, when I took the course I was working for HomeStart as ano organiser, much of which involved directly supporting famillies myself- which was the idea behind Unicef, if I could help a family I came across- well note veryone is going to accept a referral or advice to call).

And yes, I did have appropriate supervision.

I never feel qualms about giving BF advice on here, sometimes I am the best 'qualified' (and you do get a qualification) person around, but I always defer to TikTok, advise people to put a shout out for her and I do mention that whilst I have Unicef I am by no means an expert.

I don;'t think Daisymoo should ahve referred to herself as a Counsellor HOWEVER the nature of Unicef is to get other professionals in the field equipped to support BF, and I think it is exceedingly valuable and DOES equip people to give much better advice than the average joe who does often have a lot of folklore in amongst the accrued knowledge. To completely write it off as worthless (which some poeple do seem to do) is a shame. Purely experiential- but I couldn't feed ds1 for allergy reasons, and I panicked with ds2 because I associated his weight issues with the ones DS1 had suffered 9although actually completely unrelated). The info I received on Unicef enabled me to deal with my fast letdown and feed ds3 until he was 15 months.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 12:50

But clearly tiktok thinks I should refrain from helping poeple- i take it she's on here 24hrs a day and if people cannot get here then they're better off alone??????? Sorry but I felt exceedingly devalued by that post!

Place · 03/01/2007 12:51

Jalxandra said "of course I care about people fraudulently using titles. Daisym has not done this in my opinion. She says she has a background as a nurse and has done a recognised course. Why isn't she a bf counsellor?"

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Daisym is using it [counsellor] fraudulently, although I think the question is more....is her use of the term 'counsellor' misleading to mums, given that it is generally recognised that a 'counsellor' has done 2 years of specific training.

With all due respect being a nurse or midwife or gp etc. does not qualify you to be an 'expert' on breastfeeding. So a 'top-up' of a 3 days course turning you into a 'counsellor', I and several people here feel, that it may be misleading to mothers in the skills that they would normally expect of a 'counsellor'. That isn't to say that Daisym may not be an expert, just in a differing field

tiktok · 03/01/2007 12:56

Clare - I am bewildered....where on earth do I say that you or anyone else should not be helping mothers?

I could point to dozens of posts where I reiterate that anyone can offer support, and that for example people with no training at all can be wonderful here and in real life, and that the many different courses out there which equip people in different ways are to be welcomed.

But if someone is not a 'breastfeeding counsellor' then they really shouldn't use the name!

how is that saying you shouldn'ty be helping mothers??? have I said something and mistyped or something?!

tiktok · 03/01/2007 12:58

And Clare, if you search my posts for what I have said about the Unicef course, you will see I have said nothing but good things about it!

have you mixed me up with someone else?

I hope so....

nothercules · 03/01/2007 12:58

{hercules passes tiktok a cup of tea, biscuit and a wet towel to mop her forehead}

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 12:59

Maybe it was misphrased but that's how 'Frankly, on a personal level, I don't want someone like daisymlaisy giving out 'advice' on this board ' came across to me.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 12:59

Sorry - Clair not Clare!

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 13:02

BTW I dodn't know who trained daisymoo but if she has her info wrong (haven't read back that far sorry ) its p[robably a misunderstandinga s opposed to bad teaching- the lady who taught us was also one of the leading lights in the ABM, a very excellent Cpunsellor called cerys Grewcock. I know Tiktok didn;'t say it but if anyone reading this feels inclined to devalue the course because of misinformation, there is alwys who misunderstands. I just thought that was wortha point out.

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 13:02

LOL tiktok- . Thanks for name spelling change.... ridulous the things that make one bridle isn't it!

nothercules · 03/01/2007 13:03

Part of the problem for me is her unwillingness to accept she might be wrong.

tiktok · 03/01/2007 13:03

Clair - because she calls herself a breastfeeding counsellor - she can give out all the advice and support and whatever she likes, by the bucketload, and that's wonderful, but not as a breastfeeding counsellor.

Because if she does give advice (which I don't) and she uses terminology that's incorrect, and she gets things a bit wrong.....and she calls herself a breastfeeding counsellor then that reflects on me, because I am one!

Heavens.....there are loads of excellent people who support bf here, and you are one, and I never want to put anyone off.....but they don't purport to have the same training and background as me. Not because I am better than anyone else, but because breastfeeding counsellors have a certain approach, knowledge and background which is common to them all.

Hope you get the distinction!

PeachyClair · 03/01/2007 13:05

I dod tiktok, think it was just a phrasing point!

I am wella ware I am not a counsellor- I'd like to be, one day. DH has agreed to another baby one day, and Iif I have that 'year off' I will start my training (atm I am doing a degree /caring for the kids / working as a trained mentor LOL) so I very much get the distinction LOL

Daisymoo · 03/01/2007 13:06

I HAVE NEVER SAID I WAS A BREASTFEEDING COUNSELLOR!! Please don't get me confused with daisymlaisy!