tik tok

[daisymlaisy]

I have just wrote such a lengthy reply and just lost it just before I posted it, how annoying so this will probably be a bit blunt, as I haven't got time to go into detail all over again!

I take great offence in you saying that if I have only done a 3-day course at Unicef I am not allowed to call myself a bf counsellor( sorry this is one word, I have always had a mental block on how to spell it, even though I use it lots, and its my job - its really frustrating!) as you said in one reply "I am not a professional but a volunteer" so does this mean you have had no training as such? as in the next reply you say " I am a Nct bf counsellor" So how come you are allowed to call yourself but I am not????

My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course, which is one of the most respected in the country.

I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years , this is where I have had huge amounts of experiance and it is here where I have usually found that feeding more regularly than 2 hourly after the age of 3-4 weeks and if the mother has a well established milk supply can be helped, and many mothers if they are honest will say they are allowing their baby to snack when they want, rather than encouraging proper full feeds. I have a very long testimonial record for mothers who when I went to see them they were feeding very regularly as in every 30 mins -1hour thinking thats what they should be doing. However once I had explained to them to look out for other sign for example crying cause they are tired etc and obviously making sure that there are no problems of tongue tie, poor milk supply, over milk supply etc , we could encourage the baby to demand feed 2/3hourly instead. I for one who bf my own daughter til she was 7 months,if I was feeding her every 30 mins -an hour would of welcomed someone to tell me this needn't be the case. So I still stand by the fact that if the baby is over 3-4 weeks old and the mother has a GOOD milk supply 2 hourly feeds should easily be maintainable, and it is quite often mis-guided information why the mother is allowing the baby to snack every 30mins, or poor attachment, milk supply etc could be a reason for it. however it in most cases can be successfully turned around to frequent feeds every 2-3 hours.

To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years, here I did see the extremes where babies are being encouraged to feed every 30 mins-1hour to help with the mothers milk supply.

I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now.

I do feel like i have been interogated by you, and will not be posting on here any more, you have made that impossible for me anyway by tarnishing my name. So keep up the good work helping all those mothers out there and lets hope you never word anything wrong. Of course I wouldn't do this in real life, it was one of the very few times I had been on here, and I was just writing facts,and my opinions wrongly not thinking about emotional ,sleep deprived mothers who may have read it, how it was most certainly not meant. I hope to have learnt by this mistake, and think more when I am writing.

If you feel like you need to justify yourself to me , like I did to you, please do not worry, if you want to call yourself a bf counsellor, reading your threads you sound more than capable to do this. Though please do not doubt other professionals. We are all going to have slightly different views depending on our experiances and qualifications and training, certainly doesn't need one to attack another, this most certainly would put the fear of god, into already confused new mothers, who feel they don't know who to trust.

For the record, I think daisym is probably pretty well-informed about bf (and I have said so a few times) and for the vast majority of time, what she knows, coupled with her experience dealing with people, will be a great basis for supporting and helping their breastfeeding.

But she can't, in all honesty, call herself something she is not, simply because she feels herself she is qualified! No, daisymoo, the course is a Lactation Management course and does not qualify as a breastfeeding counsellor.

Daisymlaisy - it's not a good idea to talk with assumed authority about the NCT bfc course. You got the ABM course wrong, and I have no reason to think you know anything more about the NCT course.

You make the pointless assertion that the Baby friendly initiative is more respected than the NCT course - they are totally different entities. One is a programme for maternity units and one is a training course for volunteers. Who respects the BFI more than NCT? How can they compare them?

You certainly think enough about the NCT course and other breastfeeding counselling training to use the term 'breastfeeding counsellor' as your own.....

But that's my point Hunker - you couldn't do A level physics in 3 days (unless you are amazingly clever and maybe you are ) and no-one would try and teach you A level physics in 3 days.

But there clearly is a course on Breast feeding that you can do in 3 days backed by a professional organisation who are prepared to put their name and reputation to it.

McDreamy, no, people don't have to do identical courses to emerge with the same qualification.

But daisymlaisy is calling herself a breastfeeding counsellor simply because she can (it's not illegal). She thinks she has enough experience and knowledge to do so. She has followed no course which actually entitles her to do so. I don't think this is good practice because I don't think it is helpful to mothers.

McDreamy, there are 2 day courses in breastfeeding, there are afternoon sessions in breastfeeding, there are antenatal classes which devote 2 hours to it.....but in following none of these are you qualified to be a breastfeeding counsellor!!

Hope you get it now

Yes, but it doesn't qualify you as a breastfeeding counsellor because it's NOT possible to have the in-depth knowledge, the reflection time, etc, etc.

It devalues the work of proper bfeeding counsellors to say that you can train to be one in three days.

And I know, I know, I know - maternity nursing puts you in touch with bfeeding mothers. But as a well-known and not-to-be-spoken-of-on-MN maternity nurse ALSO knows bog all about bfeeding, I think we can safely assume that maternity nursing isn't the best grounding for being a bfeeding counsellor either.

Telling us we are wrong and you are a counsellor (well done for the right spelling now) will not make it so unless you can substantiate it.
I am yet to meet in real life a nurse/midwife/health visitor with as much or more experience than you who knows more about breastfeeding than I do.
That doesn't mean you dont but it's not proof on its own iyswim.

When you are able to come and talk like a counsellor and give correct factual information about breastfeeding, able to discuss where people disagree with you then people will be more accepting.

You cant convince people a three day course makes you an expert.

Hmmm so is there an specific course which leads you to the title of breast feeding counsellor?

In defence of myself an many others on this thread [quote by Jingsman]"I do feel sorry for the dreadful attack she has been under here".

I for one have NOT attacked Daisymlaisy, in fact I asked that EVERYONE "... please support breastfeeding mums wherever you can. Provide information and knowledge that you are trained and skilled to do. Don't mislead people with your skills. Learning is ongoing - everyone I'm sure will agree that we can never know everything, and be kind to people here."

I did however take issue (but not attack) with Daisymlaisy's 'attack' on the ABM training which she is NOT qualified to do. I simply responded to her query about no-one else having done the Unicef course so didn't know what she knew...and outlined what I knew of other available breastfeeding training, having done both ABM AND Unicef.

Whenever anyone offers me advice or helpful information(and in couselling, one would expect not to give advice but information in order that the person can make an informed choice themselves), I often ask 'what qualfication/experience/skills/knowledge do you have to validate that' i.e. if I had a leaky pipe and got 3 plumbers in and they all said the cause and cost of the repair was different, then I would quite reasonably want to know if they were 'qualified' and by 'whome' i.e. the plumbers guild or whatever.

Daisymlaisy offered 'advice' on this group and because it didn't sound quite right to another member, they quite correctly IMHO asked what her qualification was, or in otherwords what was she basing her knowlege on and in asking the question, freely gave 'her own' qualification.

Had DaisymLaisy simply come up and said xyz instead feeling there was a slight on her, then this topic might have closed a lot sooner than it has. However Daisymlaisy chose to skirt around the issue (she of course doen't HAVE to give any information here, least of all her background or her experience - in which case she could simply have said 'I chose not to answer that question' end of story).

But if someone had been following the threads, some of which are cut and pasted below, would appreciate that comments from Daislymlasiy sound somewhat confusing and contradictory.
Starting with (~~ seperating different posts):
"My training is as follows I am a qualified nursery nurse, Nurse, and did the 3-day Unicef breastfeeding course", "I have worked a as a maternity nurse for 9 years"

"To finish my qualifications- I have worked as a nurse on a neonatal ward for 2 years", "I have been practicing as a bf councellor for 2 years now"

"We did cover counselling, we did a whole day on it [on the 3 day UNICEF Breastfeeding Management course clarification in context by Pam)], no where near enough though, I'm hoping it comes with experiance." 

"and I have been counselling for 2 years now since I did the course, so now feel alot more equipped to counsel mothers"

"I am a rgn nurse, which over the 3 years training we undertake quite intensive counselling training as you can imagine, I then went onto train another 3 years to become a neonatal nurse, where all of the above was covered in huge details, again we did extensive counselling training as you can imagine" 
~~~ 
 
If like me (or perhaps it's ONLY me) you are know confused. I think perhaps the line about Daisymlaisy "counselling for 2 years now since I did the course, so now feel alot more equipped to counsel mothers" perhaps shows shy Breastfeeding Counsellors training from the 4 vols orgs takes about 2 years and not 3 days. Or the confusion that before undertaking the unicef course 'counselling was covered in huge detail [both on her 3 year rgn training and 3 year neonatal train - 6 years], yet after counselling for 2 years she is much better equipped. 
 
There are other discrepancies and contradictions in posts to (you no doubt will notice a few more just in this post). 
 
As I said previously, ANY help or support that ANYONE can give to a mum is greatly appreciated and we should all continue to do so. But please do not try to give information that you are not properly qualified to give, and that might even be that you are qualified to talk over the phone or face to face, but have don't have the skills in email counselling for example. If you come across a problem that is out of your scope of skills then say so or pass it over to someone that can help. And if you are setting yourself up as some sort of 'expert' then you must be able to simply qualfy your skills in that are - just like my plumber. 
 
So - my post is not about attack, but about clarity

I too am dismayed that this thread has continued this far to be honest. However, I feel it is important that it has and that tiktok has continued to point out the original point. No matter how many times Dasiymlaisy repeats it, she is not a breastfeeding counsllor. And I think it is vital that anyone reading this understands the difference.

In my work as a bf counsellor, I cannot count the number of times I have had calls from mothers in distress who tell me that they have already had help from a bf counsellor (at hospital or a local clinic usually rather than a private one). The information they have been given is often incorrect, and in many cases potentially damaging. When I question them further, it is quite clear that they have not been speaking to a bf counsellor in the true sense of the word. In many cases, it is a peeer counsellor or someone that has attended one of the many short courses avialble through local sure start initiatives. Now, I think it is wonderful that there are women doing these courses to support mothers, but their remit is NOT to help mothers who are having bf problems as they are not actually qualified to do this.

The point of this is that many mothers who do not know the ins and outs of the bf counsellor training process often assume that anyone offering bf support is trained to a similar level and act on the information they receive in almost the same way as they would if a doctor was giving them information about how to deal with an infection in their baby.

It is vitally important that mothers who seek support are clear on what training the person offering the support has. And as most mnothers do not know about what course is what, and that unicef is a 3 day course while training with one of the organisations is 2 years approximately, it is important that the term bf counsellor is used accurately. If it is used to encompass all people who have done any training, no matter how small, on bf then what hope do mothers have of knowing who is actually qualified to counsel them?

Daisymlaisy, you want us all to drop this now. But I cannot see any of the qualified bf counsellors affiliated with any of the four organisations mentioned letting this point drop as it is just too important to the mothers who seek our help daily.

Good posts, Ilana and Place....as we all keep re-iterating, it's not about daisymlaisy and whether she 'wins' or not ( ) but about the service on offer to mothers, which can come in different forms, but which mothers need to trust. Mothers need to trust that whoever is helping them knows their boundaries and limits, for instance.

I am very alert to counsellor-ish language, and I knew straight away that as well as her dodgy info, daisymlaisy was not using it with the mothers she was purporting to help - and I made the very tentative query about who she trained with.

I then got the first of what became a confusing list of experiences and employment history that Place details here, and none of it added up to being a 'breastfeeding counsellor'.

I don't actually think the 'confusing list' is contradictory - it could all be true, I think, and that's even with my cynical 'this is the internet where anyone can be anyone' experience! But as I say, she is not a breastfeeding counsellor

Surely the issue is a Professional one then. I am sure I ahve read further down that anyone after any of the breast feeding courses can call themselves a breast feeding counsellor - that surely is the problem?

"It is vitally important that mothers who seek support are clear on what training the person offering the support has......it is important that the term bf counsellor is used accurately" That cannot possibly happen until the term "Breast feeding counsellor" has a professional definition. Like Dr, Nurse, Midwife, Health Visitor .

Anyone can call themselves a breastfeeding counsellor - even if all they have done is read a babycare book, McDreamy. They don't even need to have done that. There is no protection on the term and I agree with you - somehow this should be regulated as a protection for the consumer.

But given that it isn't, it's up to individuals to decide for themselves not to use the term unless the course they follow specifically allows it.

At present, there are 4 vol orgs, two of whom (NCT, ABM) use the term 'breastfeeding counsellor'. LLL has 'LLL leaders' and BfN has 'BfN supporters'. Correct me if I am wrong here, Place! All have fairly similar courses - training in self-development, counselling skills, group skills and breastfeeding physiology. All have compulsory supervision and on-going training and support. All take roughly 2 years or more to complete. Reading lists are very similar. I would work with any of the counsellors/leaders/supporters from these orgs as an equal and I would trust them to know their boundaries. I would be fine about them using the term 'breastfeeding counsellor' too.

McDreamy, as has already been said - techincally anyone can call themselves a breastfeeding counsellor. There are as far as I know only 4 courses that 'officially' 'allow' you to use the term Breastfeeding Counsellor and even that isn't correct . The ABM trains 'Breastfeeding Counsellors', the NCT train 'Breastfeeding Counsellors', the BfN technically train Breastfeeding Counsellors but they are called 'Breastfeeding Supporters' and LLLGB train Breastfeeding Counsellors but they are called 'LLL Leaders'. So parents are already confused! There are also lower skilled 'peer supporters' 'mother supports' who generally offer 'well informed friend type support as opposed to 'counselling'.

Perhaps a better term for Daisymlaisy in order to avoid confusion for mothers and being thought of as part of the volutary orgs and more suited to her style might be 'breastfeeding advisor'?

Can the voluntary orgs lobby to make breastfeeding counsellor a protected title?

I've had a quick look at chiropodist and podiatrist are now protected terms as far as I can see - not sure how the process goes, but there must be one because chiropodist never used to be protected.

Hunker, nice idea, might cost a lot!

Place, yes, I'd be happy with daisymlaisy calling herself a breastfeeding adviser.

It's 'er' not 'or', BTW....

It only happened in 2005, hunker - titles protected by the HPC now include:
arts therapists
biomedical scientists
chiropodists/podiatrists
clinical scientists
dieticians
occupational therapists
operating department practitioners
orthoptists
paramedics
physiotherapists
prothetists and orthotists
radiographers
speech and language therapists

It is breastfeeding not brain surgery. I can't imagine what you can't learn about breastfeeding in a 3 day course.
I don't like this whole 'it's my way or the highway' attitude. No one here knows how qualified anyone else is. Daisym is not claiming to be a doctor.

Jalexandra

That's a very, very ignorant post.

Well apparently you don't learn about the intricacies of foremilk/hindmilk on a 3-day course for a start

Hunkermunker you are right. It is an ignorant post but I genuinely don't know and I have breastfed my children. If you are talking about counselling people generally then that is a different matter entirely.
Until there is a recognised breast feeding counsellor authority no one has the right to tell anyone whether they are qualified or what they can call themselves.

I'm a bit sad you think that, Jalex.

You're also being dismissive and belittling to those of us here who have spent a lot more than 3 days on it!

I am not sure if you have understood the issues here.

No one is saying 'everyone who offers support on breastfeeding needs to take a breastfeeding counsellors course'.

There are many ways of supporting bf and many ways of learning how better to support it.

You have already shared here the poor information you got about bf (you were told, I think, you had to empty your breasts?). Why would you not be in favour of people acquiring appropriate training , understanding what they are quaified to do, and being honest and open about it to mothers?

I don't think daisymlaisy thinks there is nothing more to bf than can be done in a 3-day course, or she would not be at so much pains to tell us the rest of her experience.

Jalexandra, Yes you are right in that it's NOT brain surgery, but it can be just as lethal in certain hands.

Here is a true story that happened last week (one of 3 similar ones from different people to be precise):

I had a call from a 'breastfeeding 'advisor'' who had had it suggested to her that she might like to call me for more help, which of course I was happy to give. This lady had been employed by a family who really wanted to breastfeed their newborn, on the basis that she had done a breastfeeding course (it was a short course). The lady was concerned as the baby at 9 days old was continuing to lose weight, and also concerned because her previous employee also failed to breastfeed and she didn't want this one to fail on her too!

After asking about background of the situation and health and welfare of the baby and mum etc. and discovering that the midwife had kept very much in the background in the safe (not in this case) knowledge that the couple were being supported daily be a bf expert; was I was horrified to find the the lady had informed the mum of this baby that was LOSING weight, that it was not necessary to feed anymore than 3-4 hours and if the baby cried in between then to offer him a dummy to make him wait a bit. The lady thought it would be more helpful for the mum to space the feeds, the baby 'shouldn't need feeding that often anyway should he??? and of course you didn't want to set up 'bad habits' in the baby.

I very gently asked the lady what training she had done, and the in a kind fashion explained to her the evidence and the facts over why this 'advice' she had given the mum wasn't helpful and proceeded to 'educate' the lady over the phone!

I must add that she was a very kind and loving sounding woman, who really didn't know how much she 'didn't know', and in her words - particularly as she had been a qualified midwife.

I think you will agree as most people that are watching this thread counsellor or not will appreciate why the 'advice' she gave was WRONG. But look at it another way - the mum thought that she had employed an expert - she clearly was not!

The bottom line is - this baby could have suffered serious damage or illness, and of course the mum is now left with a temporary inadquate supply by restricting feeds. etc.etc.

As I keep saying - we must be skilled in what we are attempting to do, and we shouldn't be misleading people by suggesting otherwise with names or titles or not.

BTW - this lady had NOT done one of the 4 orgs Breastfeeding Counsellor training, but had done a 'recognised' course and 'had' been medically trained previously.

So, brain surgery it aint - but dangerous, it sure 'could' be.

Tiktok, I am truly sorry. I didn't mean to belittle you. I think it is wonderful and extremely important.
I just don't think you have the right to tell anyone what they can or can't call themselves. There is not a single recognised qualification or official body governing bf counselling.
Most women i know are like me and can't imagine what is so complicated about breastfeeding, especially if they have had experience breastfeeding themselves.

If you 'don't know', then, Jalex, why come out with a pre-formed, rock-hard opinion?

There are 4 'recognised authorities' awarding breastfeeding counselling quaifications to people. They are not recognised in the legal sense, mainly because they are voluntary and don't have a lot of money to spend on the regulation thing! You seem to think that this gap allows someone else to come along and snaffle the term for themselves - presumably because they think it is a title worth having. Just 'cos they can?

Would you feel the same way about anyone else offering personal, health-related, counselling-related care, services and support? Do you want the person who does your hair and charges you for it to have trained (I don't think 'hairdresser' is protected)? A masseur? Would you want this person to have a code of ethics, backed up by the training organisation that ensures confidentiality and safe practice? Or do you not care, because it is not illegal to call yourself a counsellor, either, as it happens, with no training, no ethics, no organisation and no back-up.

Your apology X-posted with my further post, Jalex, and I accept your apology. I hope my further post gives you more info.