Breastfeeding difficulties

[Eulalia]

Cam - I meant the bit, and I quote "your breast milk will have changed so that it is only a drink, not a food". I was saying that it is more than just a drink and is indeed a food and a lot more besides. Maybe you didn't mean it to come out like that.

Eulalia,thanks for the info I'll check out the sites - number 1 is now 18 months and number 2 due 6 weeks today. He only has a feed in the morning now, but I expect will want the evening again once he sees the little one - as this happened after seeing a friends new baby feed - after refusing eveing nursing he suddenly wanted it again for a few days.

Tiktok - one of the hospitals on the other side of the county makes bottle feeding mothers bring everything in as well and sends out a long list. Wonder how much they spend on formula and disposable teats etc.

Have only just come across this site and have not yet had time to read through all the messages on this subject. My son is now 15 weeks old, and was exclusiveky breast fed for the first 12 weeks, after which I started mixed feeding. He is now mainly bottle fed with just early morning and late night breast feeds. When I was expecting him, I was adamant that he would be breast fed for at least 6 months. What I did not realise then was just how difficult breast feeding could be. My son is what I would call a very 'relaxed' feeder and even at 12 weeks could take over an hour on each breast feed. He was never an enthusiastic feeder, and only ever sucks vigourously during night feeds. Despite this, he had no problems with weight gain, and seemed generally happy. I, on the other hand, was worn to a frazzle. I had expected to be spending many hours a day feeding my baby during his first weeks, but not at 3 months, when he was still wantingat least 8 feeds a day. Whist I had many reservations about giving him formula milk, I have to say that the change has made both of us much happier - he feeds much more quickly and appears more content, whilst I no longer feel surgically attached to my son.
I would add that my problems were nothing to do with poor positioning etc - I had a lot of support from my midwife and health visitor,who both assured me that I was doing nothing wrong.
I suppose what I want to say is that whilst we all know that the best thing for babies is breast milk, no-one should feel guilty if, after giving it their best shot, they fel unable to sustain breast feeding long term.
By the way, all the health care workers around here(East Kent) are immensely supportive of breast feeding - I spent 2 nights in a midwife run unit after having my son and 100% of the new mothers there were breast feeding. There was no promotional material for formula, and certainly no free formula bottles about.

Hi Tiktok - I'd be interested to know what the hospital is in London, if you have the info. One person in my local postnatal group said the ready availability of pre-prepared formula at our local maternity unit, plus bad on-ward support, more or less finished her attempts off at breastfeeding before they'd even got started.

Hi - I think it's the Royal Free, but I am not 100 per cent sure. The mothers have to bring in the whole lot - steriliser and all. But apparently very few women opt to formula feed from the start.

Poor bf support is one of the major factors in giving up early - the stats show there's a big drop in the first week of bf. Often, mothers stop on day 1, 2 or 3 - sad when they really wanted to bf, but understandable, when they're emotional, exhausted and distressed if the baby is difficult to feed. That's the time when they really need someone to give them good support and information. Too often, a bottle of formula is suggested, and demoralised mothers think that means the end of bf - of course it needn't, but that's often how it's interpreted. The figures show 35 per cent of breastfed babies are given formula in hospital. In some plaxes it's a lot more. It's hardly ever medically necessary. It might be occasionally seen as a lifeline to a distraught mother and baby, but too often, it's given without enough discussion as to the consquences, and without the skilled help to get the baby latched on that would resolve the problem better.

I just want to say a big thank you to this site for enabling me to stick up for myself when my doctor told me my deep breast pain and sore nipple, right side only, could not possibly be thrush as suggested by the counsellor I spoke to. How could this so called specialist tell me this over the phone when she hadn't seen me? Anyway, 2 sets of antibiotics later, I read here that a few people seem to have ignorant doctors and that it very probably was thrush. So I saw a different doctor who gave me dakatarin and also saw a homeopath. 7 weeks later (my baby's 10 weeks)the pain is now subsiding. So many people could give up b/feeding if they don't look for help elsewhere. Anyway, a great site which kept me to my resolve to b/feed when all my family were encouraging me to stop. Cheers.

Anyone who needs encouragement to breastfeed through difficult times should try calling a LaLeche League counsellor. La Leche League is an organisation devoted to supporting women who want to breastfeed. I only have the London number which is 020 7242 1278. They also have a website -
www.laleche.org.uk
I called them at a very bad time with my baby and the counsellor was enormously helpful.
I found it very hard to breastfeed, partly due to poor positioning early on. Now my baby is 3 and a half months old and is fully breastfed. I'm so relieved that I persisted through the pain and managed to continue feeding him.
However, I think that the government posters: 'Breast is Best' sow all sorts of guilty feelings in women. It can take an enormous amount of encouragment to succeed in breastfeeding and the usual NHS system of midwife allocation do not allow the kind of dedicated one to one care that is needed to establish feeding with good positioning right after birth. Why not have a fulltime breastfeeding counsellor on every labour ward?

The NCT has a new breastfeeding line 0870 444 8708 which will put you in touch with a counsellor, 7 days a week 8am to 10pm.

Hi everyone - I've been off work for a week as my s-in-l had a baby, and I'd like to share some findings, which I discovered after several false starts:
If the hospital insists on pouring formula into your baby for supposedly cast iron medical reasons, but you want to breast feed, don't give up. Phone all the breastfeeding counsellors you can find to get second opinions and more information, and, crucially, try to find out the name(s) of the staff at the hospital who are the most pro breast feeding and appeal directly to them for help.
My s-in-law's baby was having formula poured into her via a tube up her nose, while the staff calmly told her mother that she wouldn't be able to express the amount of milk that they had calculated baby needed. As soon as the breastfeeding sister came on the scene, she had the tube out and the baby breastfeeding immediately. We were very happy, but left with the sneaking suspicion that other members of staff would have been quite happy to carry on shovelling formula down the tube for a week or more, and breastfeeding could take its chances.
Another thing, keep reading mumsnet - it gives you the support to start questioning something that doesn't seem right!

A friend of mine has a 12 week old baby who is 100% breast fed. The feeding went without a hitch from day one. She will be returning to full time work when the baby is 7 months old at which time he will go into a nursery. I was surprised that her health visitor had told her not to express as "it could mess up the feeding". I have had a number of friends who have had terrible problems returning to work as their babies have totally refused to take a bottle or milk from any other source than a breast. I have never however heard of anybody's baby rejecting the breast in favour of a bottle. I am a bit concerned as I would have thought that by this stage, it would have been a good idea to start expressing. Would be very interested to hear what others think.

Yes Croppy, I wish I had done the same (started expressing earlier). I went back p/t when my son was four months old and by then he would not take any of the bottles I offered him. In my defence I will say I had a TERRIBLE time getting feeding established and was still paranoid about him getting enough nourishment etc. He did eventually take the Playtex system (looks alarmingly like a small rubber breast) which is very good but not easy to find so we found a way through.
Babies love breastfeeding and I've never heard of a baby choosing a bottle over a breast. I think health visitors put out discouraging messages about early mixed feeding because frankly, a lot of mums, especially first-timers, DON'T love breastfeeding during the first few weeks and they don't want them to be tempted to switch completely. Initially breastfeeding can be baffling, painful and stressful. I wish someone had told me it was OK to feel like that, and that if I stuck with it, it would become much easier, because it really did.

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I breastfed my daughter until she was 2.5 which I tell you in order emphasise that I am very much pro breast feeding. However, with both of my babies within the first few weeks of their births I introduced bottles of breast milk simply so that I could have a small amount of baby free time each week without having to revolve all arrangement around feeding times. Thankfully in both cases it was a success, and I would recommend that other new mums do the same. Even if you are not leaving the baby it is good for them to get used to a bottle once in a while. It was nice for my partner to feed the baby from time to time too, he really enjoyed it!

Whilst my baby (7.5 months) is still very much breast feeding he has been having a lidded cup of water from three months and I have to say it has helped immensely. I am sure this was a simple progression for him from the bottle.

Croppy,

With both my babies I had to introduce bottles of expressed milk at about 2 weeks old because I was so sore (fair skin and red hair) and expressing was far less painful than direct breastfeeding. With both, when the soreness receded, I kept the expressed bottle for the last feed in the evening, so that I could get some rest.

Baby no 1 had no problems with this, and continued enthusiastically feeding from whatever came his way. No confusion between breast and bottle sucking techniques for him!

Baby no 2 was quite a different kettle of fish. She very soon started to refuse the bottle, despite repeated attempts - she knew what she wanted and it was warm and smelt of mummy, not rubber! She went to nursery at 6 mths, and I was worried about how she would manage. In fact she gradually started to take some milk from bottles and beakers while at nursery (when the mummy option was clearly not available) and we supplemented with yoghurt, milky cereal etc. She is now 18 mths and fit as a flea, so it doesn't seem to have harmed her.

I think my points are that a)early bottles don't necessarily confuse babies, b) some babies even if you try and keep up supplementary bottles won't have it anyway, and c) by the time they're 6-7 mths if they don't drink gallons of milk while in childcare not to worry too much.

Croppy
My son is 4 months old,i had started off with breast feeding,which was painful in the beginning coz of my sore breasts.My health visitor also discouraged me to introduce expressed milk in a bottle coz of confusion between nipple and teat.but my nipples were getting worse and i had to give him expressed milk in a bottle.......and voila........we usually underestimate these children! He is still on mixed feed.Noproblems whatso ever and iam planning to go back to work in a months time.

My baby was one of the rare ones who refused the breast once the bottle appeared. I was talked into adding a supplementary bottle of formula by my HV from 12 weeks because she had severe reflux, wasn't keeping much milk down and wasn't putting on weight. From the moment I gave her the bottle she physically refused to breastfeed and would push the breast away with both hands. I expressed milk to give her for a few weeks but eventually had to stop through stress and exhaustion. I felt really sad about how our breastfeeding stopped but at least she did then start putting on weight and is now very healthy. So my message to anyone who's thinking of adding a bottle is be careful because you never know what the reaction's going to be - they might refuse, or they might just prefer it to mummy.

I have been lucky in that I have been able to happily breastfeed my son from day one, with only soreness in about the second week in which I gritted my teeth and got through (I was determined not to give in). I did give my son some expressed milk on a couple of occasions so my husband could be involved in feeding, which he took to without a problem, but I had problems with expressing so didnt carry on. I was encouraged to give a top up bottle by my HV but decided it was something I didnt want to do. I think help on all feeding should be available by an unbiased specialist on whom you could call, I didnt know of any when I had my son (my first child). You need support when your hormones are stilling running riot.

I'm a breastfeeding counsellor, and mothers often ask about when to give a bottle to make sure the baby will take it. There is no good evidence either way so people who say you must give one by x weeks or y weeks or z weeks are as wrong (or as right) as the ones who say you must not give a bottle for the first x weeks etc etc. Giving bottles very soon can mess you about - not permanently, but it can be a nuisance to overstimulate a supply, and a chore to have to fit in the expressing. There is really no need for a baby of four months or so to struggle with a bottle if he doesn't want it - he can take fluids from a cup by that time(with help), and then bf when he's with mummy. I try to ask mothers what they want to do - if they cannot relax unless they know their babies will take a bottle, then by all means get the baby practising from a few weeks, whenever it doesn't feel like a chore.

Babies certainly do reject the breast in favour of a bottle, mainly when bf has not been going well. Babies whose bf has been swimmingly easy usually manage both methods well. So it is probably best to wait until you get to that easy stage. Sometimes, bf goes badly and the baby needs some expressed milk while the underlying problem is being fixed. There's no good evidence that cup feeding is any 'better' than a bottle for this, by the way. Babies can have their ebm in bottles, and at least they get some sucking comfort that way....but the underlying problem with the bf still needs attention, and skilled help. It's such an individual thing, and all this I have written is probably making it sound rigid, when it really isn't!

Help! I've just spent the last hour looking at all your postings and really hope you can help me!

I have a 14 week old baby, who was 4 weeks premature. Having been back and forth to the hospital with his jaundice they discovered during one of his many trips there that he was not gaining weight being breast fed alone. I was urged to stop breastfeeding him completely and formula feed him for a quicker weight gain. I refused because I had never been able to breastfeed before for as long (he was 6 weeks old) with my others due to pain and other factors (i have a collagen defect which makes my nipple area much more sensitive and painful and slower to heal). So I am supplementing him with nutramigen because he was allergic to cows formula, but my milk is disappearing and now he is refusing my breast completely on occasions. The times i do get him latched on he is only staying on for a couple of minutes and my breasts never feel as though they have much to give him. He seems miserable when he feeds from me and I am getting upset about it. Is there anything i can do to increase my breast milk again? I am terrible at expressing and am epileptic so need to be wary of herbal methods in case they induce fitting.

PLease please please I hope there is someone who can help!

Thanks a lot for all the replies to my question. It does seem to me that where (as in this case) breastfeeding is going fantastically well, that it would be pretty unlikely that the baby would reject the breast in favour of the bottle. Also the risk of increasing the supply and the hassle of expressing to me seem minor in contrast to the potential of returning to full time work with a baby that refuses to take milk from anything other than a breast. Nonetheless, given the number of grey areas, I think I'll keep my mouth shut as far as my friend is concerned!.

Lou33, you seem as though you are having an absolutely rotten time and it sounds like you need specialist help. My own supply took a good 8 weeks to be established and my baby didn't gain weight as he should have done until he was around 6 months. I just persevered with the feeding and in the end it worked out very well. Your difficulties do however sound a lot more serious and I hope that somewhere here will be able to help.

Lou33,

At the very beginning of breastfeeding, I had a lot of trouble-- not as much as you, though. It was only after 4 or 5 lactation consultants had come to the house to help that I got my son to latch on. For me, it was a matter of positioning. The frustrating thing was there isn't a universal "right" way to do it so I had to try all sorts of positions to find the one that suited us. So try, try again if you can, but if it doesn't work out, don't beat yourself up about it. Although I'm sure you'd really like this to work since that formula is so expensive!

Once we got started, I still had to express as well as breastfeed to build up my supply (sorry!). The breastpump I used was the big electric Medela (the "Lactina"). I felt like a cow hooked up to a milking machine, but it worked well and fairly quickly once my milk supply went up. The handheld and battery operated pumps were just awful for me for some reason. I just read that you can rent them from the NCT (is that true?) or maybe from your hospital. The international Medela site is www.medela.ch/intl

Another thing I did was drink "Mother's Milk" tea. It's a proprietary blend available in the US, but I'm sure you could find about the same thing here or mix and match your herbal teas. The ingredients list and short explanation of what each herb does can be found on the Traditional Medicinals website . I don't know if you could drink it, but maybe there's something in there that would be ok. I'm not sure that it helped, but it was definitely relaxing and didn't hurt.

Good luck! If you have to give up, don't feel bad.. I know it'd be a disappointment, though. Hope everything works out.

My only advice would be expressing regularely a little bit (1 or 2 oz to start with) at a time - especially in the morning. Drink plenty of fluids (maybe dark beer - 1 a day! I hear it works very well- I tried and didn't notice a difference but I never had a problem with quantity)

Good luck.

Lou33 - I don't really know if I can help you, but have you tried those motorised breast pumps? They are much better than the pump ones and may help to get your milk going again. The only way you will produce more milk is to feed as often as possible.

Another good tip is to place a warm towel over your breast just before you start feeding, then listen to a tape you really like to relax to, if you find feeding painful then you may be tensing up, which will suppress the let-down reflex. Have your partner massage you as you feed, it is vital that you try to relax as much as you can.

The midwives will also recommend a cream for soothing your nipples, I had some camomile lotion that cooled them down wonderfully.

The NCT have brilliant breastfeeding counsellers, you can look them up in your telephone directory.

Hope this helps, good luck.

Lou - please phone an NCT breastfeeding counsellor(0870 444 8708). She'll help you work out - with you - what will help you best, taking everything into account.

The only really sure way to make more milk is to stimulate the supply by feeding more often, making sure the baby is feeding effectively. Feeding more often when the baby isn't feeding effectively will not help; feeding effectively but not often enough is no good, either. You can also express - the info about pumps is also on this site, or the NCT bfc will discuss this too.

Effective feeding means the baby removes the milk, and thus 'tells' the breast to make more.

You can try herbs, and some of the traditional remedies have their fans, and they will be safe - but nothing is a substitute for the basics.

Someone who knows what to look for could watch you feed, and help you position the baby in a way that allows him to feed well - often, feeding positioning can be improved.

I really hope you manage to get the help you need. It is so demoralising being told to stop as if there is no alternative.

Thank you all so much for your help, I will go away and read you all again at leisure when my 4 give me a chance!

I have spoken to my breastfeeding advisor again and she has recommended 2 things to try along with extra feeding and stimulation, Domperidon tablets and a nursing supplementing system. I wonder if any of you have tried these and if they had any effect?

My problem is not sore nipples (now) because i got a fantastic cream called purelan 100 from my advisor, nor is it bad positioning because that has been checked a zillion times, and i have never been able to express even when my milk was at it's peak, so i guess it's going to be a bit of a slog to see if I can get some improvement.

Anyway, thanks again and if you know anything about the products my advisor recommended i'd be really grateful!

Lou: I would guess your adviser is American. They use Domperidone (known as Motilium) and supplementers (bags of formula attached to a tube which you stick to the nipple so the baby sucks nipp and tube together, thus getting a 'reward' and stim. the breast. We don't use either anything like so much. If you are in the UK you might well have probs getting your GP to prescribe, but you should ask, by all means! If it helps you, then why not? Supplementers are fiddly, but the theory behind them is sound, and if you are motivated and patient, this may well be a good move for you. The only thing I would say is that whatever gadgetry and medication you use shouldn't take the place of good, effective and freq. feeding. It would also be worth getting your positioning and attachment looked at - no matter how many people have said it's ok! I can't tell you how many women have said the same to me and my bfc colleagues, and we just disagree - often the posit. and attach. is improveable, and sometimes it's really poor. Good luck.