Breastfeeding difficulties

[Eulalia]

Cam - I meant the bit, and I quote "your breast milk will have changed so that it is only a drink, not a food". I was saying that it is more than just a drink and is indeed a food and a lot more besides. Maybe you didn't mean it to come out like that.

Eulalia - I tried to get info on this subject but didn't get anywhere. You may remember that you posted some very helpful stuff on the subject around 6 months ago. I was very grateful for it at the time as it was the only source I ever managed to find!.

Eulalia, I promise I'm not trying to piss you off here and I am totally pro-breastfeeding babies but I would be interested to hear your response to my perspective about breast-feeding children. I agree that other mammals suckle for longer than the average western woman but the mothers do still instigate the cessation of suckling when their offspring can successfully survive on other foods and I believe it is very rare for mammals to allow children of different ages to suckle.
I can understand mothers breastfeeding their children where food supplies are short and water supplies are not necessarily reliable or safe. However, in societies where food and water supplies are safe I cannot see a valid reason for breastfeeding children. You talk about dummies and thumb-sucking as comfort habits which have to be managed, so I would have thought that breast-feeding in children was also just a comfort habit which should be managed too. I'm not saying this to be antagonistic but I think that breast-feeding a five year old in a society where it is not necessary is anti-social behaviour.

Out of interest Bugsy, at what age do you think it becomes "anti-social" to breastfeed a child?

Croppy, I would consider a two year old to be a child rather than a baby. I wouldn't expect a two year old to be having bottles and therefore I wouldn't expect them to be breast-feeding either. This is not a rigid delimiter and I appreciate there are always exceptions etc but I just can't see why a child over two should be bottle or breast-feeding.

Eulalia, most mammals stop sucking milk by the age of 2 e.g. cattle and lambs stop taking milk at around 6 - 8 months old even before they are weaned as they get enough from the grass etc that they are fed. I know this from experience as we have had a cow that her calve sooked her mother until she was 18 months old and then weaned herself. I am not taking the piss either, and I am not putting mothers who breastfeed down I think that it is up to every individual not what other people think, and I think you will agree with me on that fact. I have a friend who breast fed her son until he was 4 years old, and was frowned upon by everyone in our village, as they thought it was unnatural. I do not know anything about breastfeeding, as I have said I bottle fed my own 2, because, at that time we did a lot of outside work from our own farm and I had to do a lot of Relief Milking other peoples cows, and had to leave the eldest with my MIL a lot of the time, and when the second was born, we were lambing and calving and bottle feeding was the best option. Many farming mothers I know have breastfed successfully but their circumstances have been different to mine. One question, why do people find it hard to find anything out about breastfeeding?,, but those of us who bottle fed got all the info we needed, as in my eldest had Cow and Gate, but my son had SMA and I got that info very quickly that some milks are more palatable to some children than others, cow and gate didn't agree with him.

You have the energy to comment, in fact I would say you have a lot of energy!, by the way have you moved house yet?

Personally I have no views on the right age for breastfeeding although I would never criticise or pass judgement on those who do decide to go in for extended breastfeeding as I can't really see what harm it does either to the mother or child. I find the prevailing attutudes in this country to breastfeeding deeply depressing. So many people seem to find it unacceptable to breastfeed in public, particularly in pubs and restaurants and so on. When Kate in the Archers was chucked out of the pub for b/feeding her baby, people in the programme just chuckled - I thought that was apalling especially as the baby concerned was 3 weeks old.

I just loathe the mix of sniggering and revulsion that surrounds breastfeeding in Britain and especially the sexual connotations that are sometimes projected on to it. It is because of these horrible attitudes that I would support any woman's right to continue to breastfeed her child to whatever age she feels is right.

Out of interest Tigger, to waht age does the average cow live? I.e. what is 2 years in cow years in terms of human years?

Croppy, I would like to say that I totally support breastfeeding babies and I agree that the attitude that it is a sniggery sexual thing is unacceptable. However, I still can't accept that b/f children is a necessary or beneficial thing in countries where food and water are safe and plentiful. Let me turn the question on its head and ask to what age you think children should be able to b/f if they want?

I just wouldn't put a cap on it. Children will surely only breastfeed as long as they actively want to. A sizeable proportion of women give up breastfeeding at around 12 months because their babies lose interest.

Tigger I think that the reason there is plenty of info about formula & bottle-feeding is that third parties stand to gain commercially from disseminating that material - formula and bottle manufacturers. Also could it be that once breastfeeding is established it regulates itself whereas bottle-feeding, requiring the correct sterilisation of equipment and mixing of formula, is easier to get wrong on an ongoing basis.
Croppy hit the nail on the head. In my exchange with Suew on the breastfeeding & jealousy board, I said that I have taken good care to not broadcast the fact that I am still feeding my son at bedtime. He is 21 months old and unlike other children I know, didn't go off it at around a year. Even amongst my NCT friends I feel a bit embarrassed, and as for letting either set of grandparents find out...isn't that sad.
Please keep the information coming Eulalia - and I'd be interested in hearing anything you can come up with on encouraging self-weaning in a toddler. "Cold turkey" worked well for Suew!

Croppy have consulted hubby on this, a female cow is classed as a heifer before they have their first calve, or a woman that has not yet borne a child, he thinks that in age comparance to a human a cow at 20 - 24 months, when having their first calf, would be 12 or 13 human years old. He says this because girls start periods and start to mature at around this age and cows come into what we call "season" or "heat" every 6 weeks, so they both are the same periods and season/heat. He does also say that after a period of time cows and sheep etc, their milk loses the goodness/nourishment that it does for the first 12 months, and does also say that the first 6 months of a calf or lambs life are the best when they are sooking milk from their mother, as their stomachs are not yet ready for other forms of nourishment, and most importantly the first 24 hours of a lamb/calves life as this is when they get the colostrum that contains all the goodness to get them onto their feet and get the gut working properly.

Bugsy - I am not necessary advocating that everyone breastfeed their child till age 5 but if the mother and child want to do it then that is their business. Yes a child of that age doesn't strictly speaking need the nutrients of milk, however we do often give our young children milk to drink till well over the age of 5 so it's a healthy "drink" for them still.

The health benefits regarding immunological benefits are of course still present and it has been said that it can take around 5-7 years for a child's immune system to fully develop. And this incidentally happens to fall in line with the age of weaning so I feel it is entirely "natural" for children to want to do it till then whether they "need" to or not. It can't be compared with dummies as dummies are actually artifical nipples anyway. No child has ever had teeth problems due to breastfeeding!

As for it being anti-social - I find this a rather bizairre thing to say as most breastfeeding mothers hide the fact that they do so once the child gets over about a year old. Can it be anti-social in your own home? Surely not. As for doing it in public - is it antisocial because others think it is disguisting? Perhaps they have the wrong attitude. I can think of plenty antisocial behaviour that a majority of adults do every single weekend like drinking to excess, barfing on the pavement and wandering around with half their clothes off. You see plenty young women with very revealing clothes and their tits practically hanging out. This is actually seen as being amusing. As for children themselves they do plenty things in public that embarrass us or are "disguisting" like picking their noses or wetting themselves.

To me a 5 year is still quite a small kid. And as I said before 7 is the maximum reported age so they do stop long, long before puberty and any ideas of sex or anything emerge in the child. Any thoughts of sexualtiy are entirely in the minds of adults. I don't breastfeed my son in public anymore because we do have to conform to some extent to everyone around us. However I wish people in this country would stop being so hung up on this kind of thing.

Need to get dinner so will respond to other posts later.

Hello again.

Before I start again I just want to go back to your post Tigermoth. Your am not entirely happy about your comment - 'what about the women who can't breast feed. It must make them feel so guilty'.

I think the view that some women "can" breastfeed and some "can't" is wrong. It is not black and white. It is very rare indeed for a women to be unable to produce milk. Just about every single breastfeeding problem has a solution and with the right information and support the mother can overcome it (even if it can be hellish initially - I know I've been there). To say that some women can't do it just gives the impression that they have inferior bodies. For a start it is usually the baby's "fault" if breastfeeding is difficult and the mother's body just responds to this (by an inadequate supply or blocked ducts for example). As I say there are ways around these problems but most health professionals seem uninterested in dealing with them and the woman ends up feeling like a failure. Of course if a mother doesn't want to go through more difficulty and deal with the problem and as a consequence wishes to give up then fair enough but it is not because she "can't" do it - it is because she has made an informed decision about how to carry on. And please note that I am not criticising those mothers.

I guess the mothers who never wanted to start wouldn't feel guilty anyway. The leaflets etc are designed to encourage the ones who do want to and I think that if woman are given the impression that some of them can't do it then it would probably put them off even trying in the first place (indeed I am sure that is what does happen).

Tigger - you didn't say - what age do cow's live to? It is obviously not as long as humans so a cow taking milk for a year is a lot longer in comparison than most humans. I don't know why there is such little info on breastfeeding - I'd guess that Marina has it right and it is about money and marketing. However there are strict regulations about advertising baby milk - for example you aren't allowed to advertise a picture of a baby actually feeding from a bottle. There is many WHO codes of practice about this and other bottle/breastfeeding issues which are on the Internet.

Croppy - glad I am not the only one with these views!

It must be emphasised that toddlers breastfeed much less than babies and if natural weaning is allowed then it becomes less and less. I've heard of older children going from nighttime to a couple of times a week and so on. This is much easier for all concerned than any cold turkey strategy. Marina - I'll have a think about it for you and get back to you.

OK - I am off as I am feeling a little 'overposted' now!

message withdrawn

All the b/f'ing mums I've known (including my wife) stopped when they returned to work, despite the "Avent Back to work kits"! Would you agree that this is the most common reason for stopping breastfeeding, rather than considerations about what is best for the mum/child?

I think Eulalia's point is that sure, extended breastfeeding isn't for everyone but mums who do decide to do it deserve to be left in peace and not labelled "weird". Personally I don't find the earth mother tag helpful as in my experience it certainly doesn't reflect the types of women who decide to breastfeed and reinforces a lot of stereotypes. Again I think the NCT's approach needs to be seen in the context of the very low breastfeeding rates in this country. Having said that, my NCT antenatal teacher didn't pressure us either way.

As I was only entitled to 14 weeks maternity leave, I returned to work 4 days a week when my baby was just 3 months old and I expressed twice a day at work until he was 14 months. During that time, I was called from everything from weird to obsessive!!.

As it stands at present in many public places, a baby being given a bottle is acceptable and a baby being given a breast is not. Until that situation is equalised, we need to really work on attitudes to breastfeeding.

Robinw - there is not more sugar in breast milk - that is utter rot. Breastmilk has more lactose but this is not the same as the kind of sugar that rots teeth like the granulated stuff you put on your cornflakes!

Breastfeeding at night is OK and if mother is worried they can always give water afterwards.

As I have already said a mother doesn't HAVE to enjoy it and that is why some give up before others (or presumably don't even start at all). Have I ever said there was anything wrong with this. I just found it strange that if they were doing it at all that they wouldn't enjoy it - why not bottle feed in this case.

I am not sure what you mean by earth mother anyway.

See below for info on breastfeeding and dental caries:

www.parentsplace.com/expert/lactation/general/qa/0%2C3459%2C6365%2C00.html

Is there a connection between extended breastfeeding, nighttime nursing and dental caries?

Though some breastfed babies will develop tooth decay, there are no good scientific studies that support this theory.
Before the use of the baby bottle, dental decay on baby teeth was rare. Dr. Brian Palmer and Dr. Harold Torney are two dentists who have done extensive research on human skulls. Dr. Torney found in studying skulls from 500 to 1000 years old that the decay rate was less than 0.2 percent. Dr. Palmer also found very little decay in ancient skulls and has concluded from his extensive research that breastfeeding does not cause tooth decay.
Tooth decay in infants, sometimes referred to as "nursing bottle mouth" is thought to be infectious. The strep mutans bacteria is responsible for dental caries. The transfer occurs through saliva to saliva contact, from mother or caregiver to baby, once the baby teeth have erupted. It is thought that only around 20% of the population has increased levels of high acid producing bacteria, putting them at risk for developing dental decay.
There are several other factors associated with dental caries: defective tooth enamel; maternal stress during the pregnancy, limited intake of dairy products during pregnancy; and an illness in the mother during pregnancy.
Dentists often recommend altering a baby's pattern of breastfeeding, reducing total number of feeds, and avoiding nighttime feeds. Since it is difficult (and generally not wise) to alter a baby's nursing pattern, there are still several ways to help cut down the chance of early tooth decay:
· Regular dental care is very important for the pregnant mother. When dental decay is repaired, it is theorized that the amount of strep mutans bacteria present in the mouth is reduced, so there is less likelihood of exposing her child to this bacteria that can cause decay. This is especially important if she has a history of dental decay.
· Brush your baby's teeth as soon as they erupt with a small, soft bristle brush, or wipe with a damp washcloth (at the minimum) following each daytime feed.
· Avoid saliva-to-saliva contact with your baby. (Basically this means that you should avoid sharing spoons, chewing food for your baby, or putting your baby's pacifier in your mouth.)
In La Leche League International's 1997 Facts about Breastfeeding, a Swedish study is summarized. "The children still breastfed at 1 year of age, who remained caries-free until age 3, had at age 2 received more help with toothbrushing, used fluoride toothpaste more frequently, and consumed caries-risk products and nocturnal meals less frequently than children who had developed carious lesions at the same age. It is not breastfeeding per se that causes dental caries but rather that other caries-promoting habits co-exist in these children." (Wendt, 1996)
As nursing mothers (and their little ones) know, breastfeeding is much more than just nutrition. The well recognized benefits of breastfeeding need to be weighed against the possibility of dental decay in a child's baby teeth.

Debbi Donovan, IBCLC
Debbi Donovan is the Director of ParentsPlace.com. She is a Board Certified Lactation Consultant, as well as a retired La Leche League Leader.

back later

My baby loved breastfeeding and I was absolutely determined that my decision to return to work full time wouldn't impact it and so it didn't.

Robinw - sorry to be sarcastic in my earlier post. It was because of the term sugar. As you know there are many different types of sugar. Breastmilk has much more lactose than formula milk but the sugar content of formula milk is increased to match breastmilk. Often sucrose is used so I am not sure that it is even true to say that there is more sugar (lactose) in breastmilk.

Lactose breaks down more slowly than sucrose so the harmfull effects of bacteria growth will take longer. We have to get this into perspective for these at risk 20%. During the day you can of course clean your child's teeth more often. If a child wanted a feed at night at say 4am and was getting up at 7am then that is hardly time for bacteria growth. I don't think the medical profession would expect these mothers to clean their children's teeth on the hour every hour.

As you'll know bottles aren't recommended because the teat is in direct contact with the teeth. The breast is held much further back in the mouth with the nipple squirting the milk into the throat.

So children don't get their dental problems "from" breastfeeding - there is no specific link. These children will always have problem regardless of whether they are breastfed or not. If a mother was really concerned she could always stop breastfeeding at night (many children do sleep through) and I'd certainly not recommend them to stop breastfeeding altogether. (see previous post for more details)

My comment about dental problems was actually related to the teeth malformation that dummies can cause. I am sorry I didn't make this clear.

Tom - I don't think that mothers choose directly between work and breastfeeding. As most mothers go back to work at 6 months many mothers do feel this is long enough for their child and so give up. However they obviously have to provide follow on milk for much longer. To save money then one could continue to b/feed part time as has already been mentioned by Bron.

Suew - the older the child is the easier it is to stop as you can explain to the child and by then the child has got used to other means of comfort which can be used. Quite strange to compare it to smoking though! I know from my own experiences that breastfeeding a toddler presents its own challenges (you just have to look at the scratches on me!).

Regarding the timing of feeds - I had exactly the same experience with my newborn and felt so annoyed when my friend told me this! She ommited to tell me that her baby was much older by the time he was doing these quick feeds. Generally speaking the older and bigger the child the faster they feed.

I don't know anything about NCT counsellors but yes I agree that there should be more support and information. As Tigger says there are masses of info about bottle-feeding but practically nothing about breastfeeding. As I said before this point about speed of feeding is an example of the ignorance I had and many others do about breastfeeding. If health professionals want more of us to do it then why aren't they emphasising these points?

Bells - hear hear on public places!

Bron - I don't think I have the alcohol info in my 'library' - will have a look though and get back to you.

Eulalia how can you say there is masses of info on bottlefeeding but not breastfeeding?? Everyone who goes to antenatal and post-natal NHS andNCT classes is just inundated with info on breastfeeding. There's a massive initiative going on you can't miss it. The fact is the midwives are reluctant to tell you about bottlefeeding, and it was not part of the NHS course. How one-sided is that?

As for dental malformation, I am sure that orthodentists all over the country have not found any proof that all their patients were all bottle-fed!

Lil, that wasn't my experience AT ALL. It is only very recently that NHS hospitals stopped providing free formula to new mothers (most still do) and also only a few months ago that a £10 a week supplement was mooted for breastfeeding mothers in order to match the £10 a week in formula vouchers given to the disadvantaged (in order to compensate for the higher food intake for breastfeeding mothers). In my NHS ward of 8, I was the only one to breastfeed and the midwives passed no negative comment either way. If it is all as one sided as you siggest, isn't it a bit peculiar that the UK's breastfeeding rates are so much lower than other countries?. In any case, medical expoerts the world over agree that best is best so promoting it would only be fulfilling the proper role for a health professional.

Eulalia's comment on teeth malformation related to dummies not bottle feeding.