Breastfeeding difficulties

[Eulalia]

Cam - I meant the bit, and I quote "your breast milk will have changed so that it is only a drink, not a food". I was saying that it is more than just a drink and is indeed a food and a lot more besides. Maybe you didn't mean it to come out like that.

Croppy, I agree. The way my 19-month son touches his willy appears playful, definitely not sexual.

oh dear Tigger, shock horror, my 2 year old still has a bottle and up until last week my 4 year old did too although hers had a training spout on it instead of a teat! I know that's terrible but I've never been very good at the perserverance thing, I've always thought if they're happy then i'm happy.

Eulalia, we live in a socially constructed world. We don't pee or poo in public, in polite company we don't pick our noses, fart or burp. The list of 'unnatural' human behaviour is endless and breast-feeding children (not babies) because it is natural argument does not work for me.
I do not think breast-feeding children is sexual or disgusting (both absurd suggestions). I just think that over the age of 2 breast-feeding will have become a comfort habit. No child eating and drinking properly needs breast-milk over the age of two. This is why I am anti bottle-feeding over the age of two as well. I think that they have become comfort habits which discourage self-sufficiency in the child. I appreciate that children need comfort and security but they need to make a gradual transition from baby things to children's things. Afterall we don't keep feeding kids puree when they can eat normal food.

I would just like to add that I don't see breastfeeding an older child as disgusting either - but if you think the sexual link is absurd, Bugsy, start reading some stuff about children's psychological development. OK I know Freud is a bit out of date now, but as far as I am aware, his theories have been built on, not rubbished.

I can see where you are coming from on the comfort thing Bugsy. Certainly afree with you that the sexual link is absurd!

Sml, wouldn't China be full of sexually confused people if that was the case??

Gracie, the social and cultural pressures on a person growing up in China are not the same as in the UK. Let me ask you a question, do you honestly believe that a five year old boy does not think about sex?

Hello again. Well here comes my latest essay. Croppy - you have answered these responses very much the way I would have.

Tigermoth - by in public I mean in a shopping centre (not a special mother room although they can be useful for other things), in a park, in the pub, on the bus etc.

Tigger - hope you feel better soon. I didn't know that people thought that bottles were wrong above a certain age. I just thought that kids stopped using them because it was easier to drink out of a cup. I think you are right though, it amounts to others having a view about what our kids should be doing at X age. No wonder we all grow up so damn neurotic!

Sml - you probably haven't come up with any research info because not a lot has been done and at the end of the day it doesn't have a big impact on how children grow up. It is not a big issue or problem for the majority of us.

I think we are getting mixed up here with my views on breastfeeding in general and what has come to mean extended breastfeeding. Sml - My comments on preventing heart disease, asthma, diabetes etc were about breastfeeding in general. As Katherine Dettwyler points out presumably these benefits continue, as the child gets older. Of course children stop long before age 7 as a maximum (I would think that much older cases are a minority). The point is DOES IT MATTER if you do longer than a year? And it doesn't do any harm. Has anyone had a child traumatised through extended breastfeeding or who goes around molesting women's breasts? Of course not. As Croppy points out the norm is for a higher age in other countries and these people grow up into normal human beings despite your attempts to find out otherwise.

Sml - I wasn't relating "everything" back to a mythical age - I am only talking about breastfeeding. I was using the natural vs artifical basis to state that in the feeding of our children the artifical method is seen as being more normal. I used an analogy with cars and walking in that both of these are seen as normal. I am not suggesting that natural is always better in every instance, just that being natural should be an option available to us. Of course we are different to gorillas - this info was following an earlier discussion. Besides the whole point of this paper was stating exactly what you say - we wean earlier because of social reasons. That doesn't necessarily mean those reasons are correct (just as we used to think that men kissing each other in public was wrong. Do you think that men shouldn't do this in case your child grow's up being gay for example?)

I realise we do have to adapt to the society we live into some extent - in parts of Africa where they b/feed for longer the breasts are often not covered at all. So it's no big deal to them. I don't b/feed my 20 month old in public because I give into social convention (even though I think it is wrong) and I realise that he and I have to deal with other people's predjuces. Then of course I am starting to teach him the distinction between private and public. This is an important part of a child's development (we have all had children trying to undress themselves in public - we don't think this is disgusting, just funny!) I don't know the 'right' age when a child should adhere to strict rules about this - it is usually a transition phase. Probably when the child can understand language more easily (at age 2 and over) would be a good time for b/feeding to be restricted to private. My comments here were that b/feeding at any age is often expected to be done in a special room (next to mums changing nappies as if b/milk is on a par with waste products). As for what people do behind closed doors - well they can breastfeed till longer if they want - most likely in this society they wouldn't want to but a few may and do and come to no harm.

Sml. I am not sure how you classify self-weaning age at 1 - you will probably find that this is more like the mother has imposed the weaning herself. Perhaps she has given the child a sweet or food instead. My friend had quite a bit of difficulty weaning her child at a year old. Generally they love breastfeeding.

Sml - I am not sure what masturbating has got to do with this! As I've said before many children only start potty training at age 2 and so lots of handling of willies, bottoms etc is required by the parents. In other words we touch the genetalia of our children. They (or you) don't have a problem with this. For a very young child being aware of your body and touching it isn't the same as being sexually aware (otherwise we would be molesting our children by nappy changing and cleaning) Of course breasts are not genetila anyway. The sexualisation of breasts is of course often an issue - but of course this is the wrong way round. Breasts may have a duel function to attract men (as Desmond Morris states) but this is nature's way of doubling up and making the most of its assets. Apart from being big (ish!) and soft they have ducts, nipples and so on, which are specifically designed for milk production. If they have been sexualised in our society then that viewpoint should be changed not just hide the objects themselves. Some say that sexuality lies in the viewer not the object. Look at nudes in art galleries, pictures of babies with bare bottoms - they are seen as beautiful or amusing. Look at nudist camps and beaches. Yes Sml some children might have funny attitudes towards boobs but who teaches them this and do you think it is right that boobs are only seen as sex objects? Would you not be happier that your child grew up thinking that they were for food? Just because we have these attitudes in our society that doesn't make them right.

My boy plays with his willy when I take his nappy off - I think because it is hidden away from him so much of the time that he wonders what it is! This is hardly sexual gratification Sml! You have got it the wrong way round. They don't know is wrong to play with their willies in front of you they learn that afterwards (or do it in private!) Much older kids have games of doctors and nurses and they show each other their private parts but they are not having sex. I think you are mixing up bodies and sex. Can we not put our minds into that of a 2 year old - what do they know about sex (or have you been showing your children late night TV Sml?!) They are innocent for god's sake. It us adults that have dirty minds! Children grow up gradually Sml so stop worrying. And as I've said before kids stop b/feeding long before puberty so you are arguing about some imagined fear that has no rational basis or evidence.

So hang on, are you saying that because we have developed a consumer/sex society in the UK, mothers shouldn't breastfeed beyond a certain age? Sounds a peculiar way of thinking to me.

On the question of a 5 year old thinking about sex, I concede that at 5 a child may feel the odd twinge of something akin to sexual pleasure but I certainly don't think they would understand it and don't think they would spend any tinme thinking about it as such.

Bugsy - yes they may not need to but as I've already stated we do plenty of things we don't NEED to do. We don't need to eat most of the food we do so this isn't a good argument. As I keep saying b/milk is good for the child and so what if some want to do it for longer.

Breastfeeding does not discourage a child from being independent - this is a myth - they are just the same as any other kid.

The analogy with pureed food doesn't work as b/feeding kids eat all kinds of food - it doesn't 'prevent' them from eating these foods and may actually stop them from eating too many blasted sweeties.

And I am not suggesting that we b/feed older kids in polite company. I've seen plenty people fart, swear, pick their noses etc though.

What is wrong with comforting your child? Surely you hug your child, give it toys, stories etc. They all grow out of breastfeeding - why are we always in such a hurry to get our kids to be doing X, Y and Z at a certain age?!!

There are much too many aspects here to talk about, but there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding, certainly of what I've said, and probably I am just as guilty. Eulalia, I am not suggesting that children are anything other than innocent in their approach to sex, but I do think it's naive to suggest that little boys regard playing with their willy as essentially no different from, for instance, pulling their ear. On the whole question of extended breastfeeding, I just don't accept that if a five or six year old has a breastfeeding relationship with his/her mother, that such a relationship wouldn't affect a child's view of his/her physical interaction with other people, including sex in due course, which I don't think is desirable. So I can't hold to the view that children should wean themselves, although in other aspects of dealing with small children, I generally agree with what you say, in having a rather child centred approach. This is absolutely, positively going to be my last posting on this subject unless I find out some new research!!

Sml - on the contrary a lot of Freud's work has been challenged. I don't remember him ever talking about b/feeding either I am sure, because everyone did it, and for longer and no-one thought twice about it, simply because there is nothing to think about.

we have to touch our children's genitalia when we change their nappies. This doesn't sexualise the process or prevent them from interacting with other people. Like I said before breasts are not genitalia and so sex doesn't apply. If you think your (and others) breasts are for sex then that is your view but I think it is wrong to have this view because it makes women into sex objects. How can a 5 year old know about sex if he's never experienced it? Don't you think your ideas about sex are just you looking at it from an adult perspective?

Katherine Dettwyler says that most kids self wean between 3-4. Surely these kids no nothing of sex. They don't think that you are abusing them if you touch their bodies so what's the difference between them touching yours. In other societies they maybe do it a bit longer but I bet they don't have any problems with forming relationships.

I am sure in more liberated countries like Sweden they would think this hang up about b/feeding is nuts. It is interesting to note that the UK has the highest rates of teenage pregnancies in Europe but one of the lowest rates of b/feeding (with extended b/feeding being a tiny proportion). Whatever it is that is causing these kids to have sex it is absolutely nothing to do with breastfeeding.

Bugsy - wait a minute what has peeing, pooing, picking noses etc got to do with breastfeeding? These are all removal of waste products and I agree we don't do these in polite society largely because they are unhygienic and spread disease. B/feeding is neither of these.

B/feeding can't be compared to bottle feeding over the age of 2 as a 2 year old can take a bottle on its own. B/feeding is about interacting with the mother and like I say this doesn't make them less self-sufficient. How many self-sufficient 2 year old are there anyway? They can barely control their bladders at this age.

I agree that dummies/bottles may not be a good idea after a certain age (although these kids do grow out of them and does it matter if it takes a bit longer?). But again you can't compare this. The problem with dummies/bottles is they can (I stress CAN) be mis or overused. We have already discussed the teeth probs with dummies and with bottles they too can be held against the teeth for long periods resulting in decay. Dummies in older kids mean that they may not talk so readily or it is being used as a device to shut them up. You cannot carry a mother's nipple around in your mouth so these problems don't arise.

As for being unnatural - I don't really like this term but I used the analogy with cars (unnatural) and walking (natural). Both of these are socially acceptable yet doing something 'natural' like b/feeding a toddler is seen as unnatural or socially unacceptable without any logical objections. Personally I find it insulting that b/milk is regarded as a 'waste' product - very strange when it actually provides life. I think it is neither unnatural and shouldn't be socially unacceptable. The thing is people used to b/feed toddlers so we are actually regressing and becoming predujiced on this view.

As you say we do lots of unnatural things but some would argue that these do us no good. We overfeed our children with junk food, buy them too many toys instead of giving them attention, stick them in front of TVs in rooms on their own (talk too much on Mumsnet!) etc etc. The point is that b/feeding forces the mother to take time out and actually sit with the child and the milk itself is good for the child. Again as I have said before we all give our kids lots of milk so what is the objection to breastmilk (with it's added properties)?

My friend successfully combines work and breastfeeding so it needn't mean a child is tied to a mother's apron strings. In any case a 2+ year old isn't likely to be b/feeding much - maybe only a couple of times a day. The child is too busy running around playing and learning the rest of the time. We all have to comfort our children when they are sick, tired or confused and b/feeding is just an added way of doing this.

Anyway where is the EVIDENCE for all of this - has anyone here b/fed their child till age 2 or above? How can we make all these assertions if we don't really know. I've done a fair bit of research on it and found no negative aspects (except other people's notions).

Oh come one, how the hell can you compare breast feeding in public to having a dumf in public, please come one, this discussion started regarding breast feeding, I do think that it is now getting a bit beyond reason.

My son is 4 how the hell can he know about sex, not unless he has become some kind of super brain over night!, he does not play with his willie, and does not even pass comment on the bull whilst doing his duties!. Daughter on the other hand is far more astute when it comes to these sort of things and knew about the bull and cows etc when she was about 3 1/2 - 4. Why can't it be that those who want to breast feed do it and those who don't, don't. It is not for everyone and anyone who doesn't do it should not be cast down as some sort of leper and those who do should be classed as the same. There are not many women in this day and age who want to breast feed in front of their family never mind the general public. I am not going to get into the ins and outs of formula v's breast milk, but I will say my 2 children were not as FAT as breast fed babies I knew! and they suffered less infections than b/fed babies I knew as well. A lot depends on lifestyle and diet as to the immune system working well, what we eat etc. I do not care what the so called experts say, how many people do they actually survey anyway, a handful not the entire motherhood of the world, sorry parenthood (keep Tom and Duncan happy, although if they b/fed it would be an absoloute miracle!!)

To compare real milk and formula here are my findings, on comparisson and regular feeding bottle fed babies thrive as well as b/fed babies. Same as lambs and calves who are fed what we call powdered milk (formula).

Years ago how did my grandparents survive on nothing but cows milk?, how did I and many other children like me survive on milk straight from the cow, not pasteurised, far to many people are to clean nowadays, everything has to be this way and that way. I when I was younger had far fewer colds than my cousin who drank nothing but pasteurised milk, I never had as many colds or flu bugs like him. I cannot stomach pasteurised milk, I can however take it straight from the bulk tank and let it cool in the fridge and drink it that way. Strange I know then i am not your normal sort of person.

I agree with the vast majority of what Eulalia has said here, however, my little boy DID self wean at 11.5 months! I was most happy to keep feeding him for as long as he wanted to (we had a very rocky start to feeding..so once established I wasn't keen to stop in a hurry!) but at about 9 months he dropped his first feed (no amount of encouragement could make him want it!) and by 11.5 months he had dropped all feeds. He just didn't want to know about a breast, or a bottle, and would only drink (water, mind you) from a training cup. At this time we had to up his intake of cheese and yoghurt so he would get enough calcium etc as he wouldn't (and still won't)drink cows milk either! Just wanted to let you know that it CAN happen and not because I wanted it too, I was actually feeling a bit abandoned by him!

Sml, how can children be innocent in their approach to sex if as you seem to believe, they "masturbate" at extremely young ages. By definition, masturbation is deliberate self stimulation with an erotic purpose so clearly isn't innocent.

Tigger not sure who you are addressing here but I will comment anyway. The issue about dummies was in relation to comfort sucking ie comfort sucking at the breast or with a dummy.

I am glad you feel that people should be left alone to do what they want.

Indeed there are always individuals who are healthy and who thrive whatever method of feeding they get and as you say there are other factors involved. However I must take issue with your disparaging comment on expert research: of course it is not just done on a handful of subjects. If I may bore you for a moment: research into any area must be carried out on a representative sample of the population and factors such as inheritance, congenital traits etc taken into account. There has been research into breastfeeding for decades on thousands of babies and it all shows clearly the benefits as I've stated below with major and minor illnesses. The Breast is Best campaigns etc in health clinics are not telling lies.

I feel strongly on this as I used to do research as a living so I know what rigorous checks are made and if you don't argue your case coherently with supporting evidence it is kicked out.

I thought unpasturised milk lead to problems because it had bacteria and hence storage was a problem because it went off quickly. I know some people drink it nowadays from a few select farms (because we have refrigeration) but even so it is not advised for the very young or old. Before formula milk if people didn't b/feed many people died because they didn't have proper nutrients, hence why formula has so many ingredients added to it.

I am not implying that Breast is NOT Best, just that it is not for everyone when the children get older. I couldn't stand the thought of my 2 running about with a bottle so they were taken off the bottle at around 10 months, they had been using a cup for a wee while before that though. Dummies, gave me many a peaceful moment!, and it was on the encouragement of the Midwives at Creswell Maternity Unit and my own Midwife at home that the eldest had it. As my HV told me some babies need to suck after they have finished feeding and she was one of them, and her lungs had a bloody good screeching capacity!!!. Both fo them their teeth are fine, but they didn't have the dummy for long either, same as the bottle I might be bit neurotic on that as well. But I do respect your info as I have read right back to the start of this and your info and input, had I known you before I had them, I probably would have asked your advice and fed them myself, I feel you could have helped with the times I would be working away etc etc.

Right I'm off, pet lambs to feed, son to take to doc with horrible infection of some sort and get myself a bar of chocolate. I'm ditching the diet for ONE day only!!

Thanks for the compliment Tigger. I am glad that my postings have made a difference to some people here. As I say I don't think it is fair for health professionals to bombard us with info about what we should be doing and then to not support us when the baby is born. There is a lot of mystery surrounding the process and it is not helped by horror stories from some mums and others saying that you physically can't do it.

Not wanting to do it is another matter and whatever one chooses to do then they should be supported with their decision. However it seems to me that those who have problems are not provided with the solutions such as a breastpump for example. I think witholding treatment is terribly wrong.

My friend never wanted to b/feed and she said so in our antenatal class and she was picked upon by the speaker. I didn't this was fair as some of the others sat their looking smug saying that they would and as it turned out they only gave it a token try. I think she wants to try it next time though as she is envious of how thin I am ... oops maybe this I should not talk about.

By the way do you know where you can buy unpasturised milk in Scotland?

Chelle - Ta for the info. I speak largely of average figures here. This means of course that there are babies who wean at the lower and higher end of the spectrum. I am sure some mums would be envious of your easy weaning process.

Eulalia, your arguments are very interesting and convincing until you start saying that B/fed children have higher IQs or B/fed children have lower cholesterol etc. These statements have not been proven. There are so many factors that could lead to a persons IQ (genetics being the main one), that to say that b/feeding will increase IQ just puts me off your arguments!! Why can't you keep it to the very, as I said, convincing sociological and health reasons rather than these more obscure. I mean only last week we were told in a survey that breastfeeding too long leads to high cholesterol. So who do we believe??

And Sml, boys play with their willies in the bath as soon as they can, in fact its not surprising when you think that they don't usually get to see it, being hidden by a nappy all daY!. And to say it is not innocent is a sad reflection on society's obsession with child sex.

But Lil, I never said it wasn't innocent! It is perfectly healthy and normal for little boys to play with their willies, just that you have to be realistic about what they are innocently doing!

Actually I find the breastfeeding increases IQ argument very convincing, especially when it's applied to very small or premature babies!

Sml, maybe I'm cynical on this point because I was a premature baby who never saw a breast, and I have an IQ of 168 (I rarely admit this as I'm sure you will now label me a bespectacled boffin!!).

I know individual statistics like mine don't mean much on their own - but its proof for me until you show me someone who can prove their IQ would have been higher if they were breastfed!!Pretty impossible I think!

There have been a lot of studies in the past demonstrating the link between breastfeeding and above average IQ's although to what extent they have successfully taken into account socio-economic factors I'm not sure.