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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Breastfeeding difficulties

217 replies

Eulalia · 28/02/2001 18:37

Cam - I meant the bit, and I quote "your breast milk will have changed so that it is only a drink, not a food". I was saying that it is more than just a drink and is indeed a food and a lot more besides. Maybe you didn't mean it to come out like that.

OP posts:
Sml · 23/03/2001 13:18

Actually I do know someone who was premature and is super-brainy! But maybe he - and you - would have been even cleverer if you'd had breastmilk!

Star · 23/03/2001 13:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Tigermoth · 23/03/2001 15:14

I have been trying (unsuccessfully as yet) to get a printout this whole message board. I'm at work, so it should raise a few eyebrows if someone else gets to the printer before me. There's so much interesting and useful stuff that I just can't keep up and do my job.

Eulalia, you say it is unfair of health professionals to bombard us with information about what we should be doing, and then not support us when the baby is born. This rings so true for me and I would like to add to it... whether you choose 100% breast-feeding or(later on) mixed feeding.

Anyway, can I ask please you a question, especially after reading Star's account of her painful experience: How do you think this support should be given? What practical measures would you like to see put in place?

Hmonty · 23/03/2001 15:46

Oh lordy! Just think how stupid I'd have been if I hadn't been breast fed! Thanks Mum!!

Eulalia · 23/03/2001 19:35

Lil - can't I research what I want! The link with IQ is apparently due to long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids in human milk which is essential to the growth of the brain. I am not a biochemist so my role here is merely to report the references of other authors. Here are 3 from the following paper if you want to look them up:

Breast-feeding: Unraveling the Mysteries of Mother's Milk, Margit Hamosh, PhD, Georgetown University Medical Center

Lucas A, Morley R, Cole TJ, et al: Breast milk and subsequent intelligence quotient in children born preterm. Lancet 339(8788):261-264, 1992.
Lucas A, Morley R, Cole TJ, et al: A randomised multicentre study of human milk versus formula and later development in preterm infants. Arch Dis Child 70(2):F141-F146, 1994.
Rogan WJ, Gladen BC: Breast-feeding and cognitive development. Early Hum Devel 31(3):181-193, 1993.

You can find the paper on: www.medscape.com/Home/Topics/psychiatry/psychiatry.html This is not a direct link as you have to join the site (which is free)

These findings do appear to relate mostly to preterm infants. I do agree that measuring IQ is notoriously difficult. How do we decide what intelligence is anyway when there are so many different talents that people have? I haven't had a proper chance to look into this so sorry if I am slipping in my work here!

I'll dig out the stuff on cholesterol - I don't have time just now. I did hear something about this latest piece of work but as far as I know it is only preliminary findings. I think what it means is that there is a larger jump in cholesterol levels when these b/fed kids switch to a fatty diet because their levels were so much lower when they were just on milk. I don't have a copy of the full text though so it is difficult to make a proper comment on it.

Star - I didn't say I admired those women who didn't b/feed (lordy it is difficult to please everyone!) it was just my pal who was at least being honest about not wanting to and she got stick for it! As for the ones who gave up - it is precisely these who I have sympathy for because they don't have adequate support - so I am right there with you on this one.

Tigermoth - I'll get back to you on this.

It is difficult to talk here without giving offence to some individuals this is why I try to keep my info as factual as possible. I know that there is a lot going on when you've just had a baby and the influence of the medical staff, your partner, family, friends, other children you have and so on has an impact regardless of whether or not the little blighter is latching on properly or not!!

It is Friday and I need a glass of wine and my son is latching on as I type but he is getting rather big to be lying across my lap!

OP posts:
Midge · 23/03/2001 22:26

The paediatricians we had dealings with in two neo natal units advised that if breastfeeding (or expressing to feed) is not possible, ideally only formula milk that contains long chain polyunsaturated fats should be used as these are proven to aid brain development - obviously particularly important in prem babies. In my case I had to express for 2 1/2 weeks before I could begin to attempt "direct" breastfeeding (ie boob to mouth and not via tube) I felt it was essential with a prem baby to at least try and breastfeed. I struggled gamely on for 2 months before a lack of weight gain meant I needed to supplement with formula and was quite upset to have to give in completely after 3 1/2 months.
I do think breast versus bottle is a purely personal decision and neither should be held against you. In my case circumstances meant I was desperate to do all I could to help give my boy what I considered to be a better start than he had already had, but when I gave in to formula milk, at least I was able to reap some comfort from knowing he was at least having milk that still contained LCPs.
I should add that in the neo natal units I came under no undue pressure to breast feed, just a few gentle suggestion and bags of assitance,and those who chose not to b feed were never critisised.
Not all formula milks contain LCPs at the moment. Milupa Aptimil was the first and I think Heinz and Farley milk does now (lets hope it tastes better than their jar meals).

Eulalia · 24/03/2001 10:49

Midge - you did well feeding your prem for 3 1/2 months. Usually it is not attempted because they are so small and of course with prems having an immature gut the b/milk is essential. Also she would have your colostrum.

For those who are interested this my info on long chain polyunsaturated fats:

Human milk contains significant amounts of DHA and AA which are long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids derived from linoleic and linolenic acid. These fats are important to the process of myelination, the development of the sheath around nerve fibers than enables them to send messages. This process is critical during baby's first year and the presence of these particular fats in baby's diet may be important. In some parts of the world DHA is added to cow's milk formulas, although researchers are not certain whether adding this one component to infant formula will make a difference. Human milk is a complex substance and how everything in it works together is not fully understood. Am J Clin Nutr 1993; 57 (Suppl):801S-95S

OP posts:
Eulalia · 24/03/2001 11:51

Sorry Midge I should have said "he".

Tigermoth - as to support. Well more info in health clinics (ie more than just posters), perhaps a more detailed leaflet, much more info in antenatal classes such as a whole class dedicated to it. In my class the breastfeeding info consisted of us all passing round various maternity bras! If a breastfeeding mum could be persuaded to come in to show the others how to do it this would be ideal as many of us have never seen anyone actually doing it. Otherwise a video would be useful as so much of the technique is down to positioning. Perhaps a breastfeeding counsellor could come in to give a talk.

OK that is the first stage in order to prepare the mum. She should also purchase a good quality electric pump. This may seem expensive (approx £35) but when you consider the costs of formula + bottles etc it is not much. Expressed milk doesn't need to be stored in special containers although these can be bought. Any clean and sterilised small container will do. Other useful devices are breast shells which can be fitted over the other breast whilst feeding. These catch the drips (maybe 1/2 an ounce at a time)which prevent making a mess and of course this can be kept to feed to your baby. I found I could collect quite a lot like this over the course of a day.

After the birth try to put baby to breast as soon as poss as apparently this helps with the baby learning how to b/feed. Why I have been banging on about support in hospital so much is because this is where everything goes pear shaped. I'd guess that about 80% of women want to b/feed but by the time they leave hospital only 66% are doing so and this has dropped to 42% by six weeks (largely because supply wasn't established properly and a host of other difficulites). In other words starting off the process in those first few days is critical to the success of breastfeeding.

This is also why I haven't recommended formula in the early weeks not because I think it is "bad" or anything but because every time a bottle is given it is one less time at the breast. Those signals aren't sent to your brain and the milk is not produced. The next time you feed your baby you have less milk so supplements are given and so on, it getting worse at each time. This is why a lot of women don't have enough milk. It is not a direct fault in the woman. Of course there are exceptions in the case of prems and so on but generally speaking we shouldn't need to give supplements if everything is working correctly. I had to do so and I know a lot of people do but I realise in retrospect it was down to me getting off a bad start. I was in hospital for 4 days and those 4 bad b/feed days meant nearly 6 weeks of difficulty afterwards.

Of course mixed feeding is fine after about 2/3 months.

So the support that should be given in hospital is access to a good pump (I was actually denied this). Insist on this. This is essential even if you don't want to carry on. Some women probably find they don't like the sensation of b/feeding and may wish to stop. The pump can help them to draw off the milk and lessen the discomfort and prevent infections.

Infections are largely due to milk pooling in the breast because it is not being drawn off by the baby quickly enough. The situation of blocked ducts, mastitis, blood and pus etc should never occur and it terrible that women are being subjected to this. Imagine you are sitting needing the toilet and you are told to just hang on for hour after hour with your bladder filling up and no way of releasing it. Well it is not much different for your breasts. As you milk comes in around day 2/3 your boobs are fit to burst - you must get this out either by baby or a pump. I know drugs are given to prevent milk production for those not wanting to b/feed but it is much quicker to pump in conjunction with these.

I know staff in hospitals are very busy but the way I saw it they seem to spend far too much time weighing the baby, taking it's blood sugar (which involved lengthy processes of drawing blood via the heel (and much screaming of baby) instead of concentrating on the process of feeding the baby itself. Because my baby wasn't latching on well his sugar levels dropped and he was given formula milk. It is much easier for this staff to get a bottle out of the cupboard than to sit with you and help you with the baby. Yes of course formula milk is a viable alternative but with this lack of support breastfeeding isn't being given a proper chance.

In any case being aware of what is happening in your body means that you can self help yourself to some extent and hopefully with the preparation beforehand you won't come into difficulties. (See my post further down about mastitis etc which explains more fully about what to do if this does occur).

Now there are plenty of circumstances where b/feeding can be difficult to start off such as the mother has had a bad birth for example. The last thing you want after someone prodding about down there is for lots of prodding on your breasts. However remember it is only for a few days and the point is that there is no going back. If you decide you don't want to do it after a few weeks then of course you can give up. However it is almost impossible to resume breastfeeding after a delay of even a few days (although re-lactation can be done but it is very difficult and time consuming (even adopted babies have been breastfed through a lot of hard work)

I do think everyone should try it even if just for the first 10 days so that the baby gets your colostrum. There should be no reason why a woman (f she wants to) shouldn't breastfeed for 6 months and maternity leave is designed for this. After that mixed feeding is possible and I think its a good idea to carry on for a year because this is the length of time that follow-on milk is necessary. Just think of the huge amount of money you'd save over the year. Formula milk is a multi-million pound industry and there was a lot of corruption when it was first introduced. Now there are WHO guidelines regarding it's marketing and advertisement. At the end of the day these industries stand to lose if more women breastfeed not to mention the dairy farmers (sorry Tigger!), bottle and teat manufacturers, manufacturers of dummies, sterilisers, and so on...

Anyway I digress ... just pointing out as I am sure we all know that these industries have a large influence on government as does any major industry. However things are a lot better than they used to be - the Cow and Gate rep at our antenatal class started off his talk by saying - all women should breastfeed!

At the end of the day it is about choice but it should be an informed choice about both methods and I feel that the choice is actually not as real as it appears to be because of the lack of info and support. This leaves most women ignorant, struggling in the dark, in pain and guilty. Then many don't even consider it for child no 2 or 3 (although as is not well known it is largely down to the baby how well he latches on and sucks). Most women I know seem to only know about the problems, not the solutions or indeed the benefits - the end product (apart from those listed on posters). It is the bit in between ie the practicalities of it that have to be further explained and promoted.

OP posts:
Midge · 24/03/2001 12:15

With regard to hospitals and b feeding I would like to add that at the first hospital we were in the neo natal staff were great, I was supplied with a pump to take home and lots of advise. Unfortunately this didn't happen until day 3 when I was discharged as the staff on the post natal ward were supposed to be dealing with me and quite frankly they couldnt give a s* about the people in their care - I could relate some real horror stories (thankfully not about me). I had to nag and nag to get access to a pump and then it was supplied with bits missing and no instructions, deep joy.
After being moved to a hospital closer to home the staff there were brilliant, really supportive and encouraging. On finally being sent home we were given a 24 hour helpline number to an advisor and I was lucky to have a really good health visitor. She was good enough to bear in mind my condition as well as my babys regarding breastfeeding, I had really wanted to continue but gave in (and saw it as giving in) because I was unwell and not able to recover myself (wrung out strung out knackered and had a middle ear infection!!). Things had become a vicious circle of diminishing health and diminishing supply. I am grateful for the support I received, even more so after reading some of these messages, people shouldn't have to go through some of the things I've read here, I'm appalled.
Please excuse typos and rambling, it's been a very long night!

Eulalia · 24/03/2001 16:40

I found the community midwives great and the staff at the clinic very helpful. Also the midwife I had through the whole labour and birth was wonderful. It was just my experience in hospital after the birth that wasn't good.

Lil: I found these 2 articles that suggest a link between b/feeding and low cholesterol/heart disease. There is an awful lot of stuff out there which is quite complex and I am not really qualified to review these papers properly. I don't want to delve too deeply into the technical aspects of breastfeeding (perhaps you are right there). However I can#t just make assertions in my posts without backing them up with some evidence.

There was a recent study which was highlighted on the Mumnset fact of the day relating to research done at Ninewells Hospital (I think) and was on the front page of Scotland on Sunday about a month ago. This is much more up to date and a large study which showed links between b/feeding and heart disease and also the effects of early introduction to solids (before 15 weeks). Anyway here are the 2 articles I mentioned:

1: BMJ 1999 Jul 17;319(7203):147-50
Breast feeding and obesity: cross sectional study.

von Kries R, Koletzko B, Sauerwald T, von Mutius E, Barnert D, Grunert V, von Voss H

Institute for Social Paediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, Ludwig Maximilians University, Heiglhofstr 63, D-81377 Munich, Germany.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the impact of breast feeding on the risk of obesity and risk of being overweight in children at the time of entry to school. DESIGN: Cross sectional survey SETTING: Bavaria, southern Germany. METHODS: Routine data were collected on the height and weight of 134 577 children participating in the obligatory health examination at the time of school entry in Bavaria. In a subsample of 13 345 children, early feeding, diet, and lifestyle factors were assessed using responses to a questionnaire completed by parents. SUBJECTS: 9357 children aged 5 and 6 who had German nationality. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Being overweight was defined as having a body mass index above the 90th centile and obesity was defined as body mass index above the 97th centile of all enrolled German children. Exclusive breast feeding was defined as the child being fed no food other than breast milk. RESULTS: The prevalence of obesity in children who had never been breast fed was 4.5% as compared with 2.8% in breastfed children. A clear dose-response effect was identified for the duration of breast feeding on the prevalence of obesity: the prevalence was 3.8% for 2 months of exclusive breast feeding, 2.3% for 3-5 months, 1.7% for 6-12 months, and 0.8% for more than 12 months. Similar relations were found with the prevalence of being overweight. The protective effect of breast feeding was not attributable to differences in social class or lifestyle. After adjusting for potential confounding factors, breast feeding remained a significant protective factor against the development of obesity (odds ratio 0.75, 95% CI 0.57 to 0.98) and being overweight (0.79, 0.68 to 0.93). CONCLUSIONS: In industrialised countries promoting prolonged breast feeding may help decrease the prevalence of obesity in childhood. Since obese children have a high risk of becoming obese adults, such preventive measures may eventually result in a reduction in the prevalence of cardiovascular diseases and other diseases related to obesity.

BMJ 1992 Mar 28;304(6830):801-5
Relation of infant feeding to adult serum cholesterol concentration and death from ischaemic heart disease.

Fall CH, Barker DJ, Osmond C, Winter PD, Clark PM, Hales CN

MRC Environmental Epidemiology Unit, University of Southampton, Southampton General Hospital.

OBJECTIVETo examine whether method of infant feeding is associated with adult serum lipid concentrations and mortality from ischaemic heart disease. DESIGNFollow up study of men born during 1911-30. SETTINGHertfordshire, England. SUBJECTS5718 men, for 5471 of whom information on infant feeding had been recorded by health visitors and 1314 of whom had died. 485 of the men born during 1920-30 and still living in Hertfordshire who had blood lipid measurements. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURESDeath from ischaemic heart disease; serum cholesterol and apolipoprotein concentrations. RESULTS474 men had died from ischaemic heart disease. Standardised mortality ratios were 97 (95% confidence interval 81 to 115) in men who had been breast fed and had not been weaned at 1 year, 79 (69 to 90) in breast fed men who had been weaned at 1 year, and 73 (59 to 89) in men who had been breast and bottle fed. Compared with men weaned before one year men not weaned had higher mean serum concentrations of total cholesterol (6.9 (not weaned) v 6.6 (weaned) mmol/l), low density lipoprotein cholesterol (5.0 v 4.6 mmol/l) and apolipoprotein B (1.14 v 1.08 g/l). Men who had been bottle fed also had a high standardised mortality ratio for ischaemic heart disease (95; 68 to 130) and high mean serum concentrations of total cholesterol (7.0 mmol/l), low density lipoprotein cholesterol (5.1 mmol/l), and apolipoprotein B (1.14 g/l). In all feeding groups serum apolipoprotein B concentrations were lower in men with higher birth weight and weight at 1 year. CONCLUSIONS--Age of weaning and method of infant feeding may influence adult serum low density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations and mortality from ischaemic heart disease. Adult serum apolipoprotein B concentrations are related to growth in fetal life and infancy.

OP posts:
Eulalia · 24/03/2001 16:48

Oh yes and I found that article you mentioned Lil (The Independent, 16 March) - the research was only done on 331 people aged 20-28 who were born in one hospital in Cambridge and even then it didn't explain properly the findings.

I didn't feel this justified the headline in the paper which is surely bound to confuse people.

OP posts:
Eulalia · 25/03/2001 10:48

Happy Mother's Day.

I found all the info I mentioned quite easily. The BMJ site is brilliant. I could spend days reading all the papers there.

Duration of breast feeding and arterial distensibility in early adult life: population based study, C P M Leeson, M Kattenhorn, J E Deanfield, and A Lucas, BMJ 2001; 322: 643-647

For full text see:

www.bmj.org/cgi/content/full/322/7287/643

This paper has caused outrage amongst the academic community worldwide who have been highly critical of the methodology used. Apparently many women have stopped breastfeeding very suddenly resulting in mastisitis. Because the findings are by no means conclusive the BMJ have been criticed for causing confusion and panic amongst parents paricularly because of the way it was reported in the media.

For a full review of the responses to the paper see
www.bmj.org/cgi/eletters/322/7287/643

Briefly the main criticisms are:

This study was done by a group that included the Medical Research Council Childhood Nutrition Research Centre which "has collaborated with the infant food industry for its outcome studies on nutrition."

There was only a 28% response rate in the study and the responders. The study was one-dimensional using one cohort from one area of the country and appears to be based on a convenience sample of self selected volunteers, introducing bias at an early stage of the study. Numerically the sample is small, limiting the ability to generalise the results. The average BMI of the group is high, 24.2 and 24.3 breast-fed and bottle-fed respectively.

There was no reporting of socio-economic factors. Important confounders, which are not described, are those relating to the exposure (exclusivity of breastfeeding) and the outcome (no mention of family history of heart disease or diabetes-despite reporting that serum insulin and glucose levels were measured). Also as one prof says "since when is vascular distensibility (the measure used in the study) a recognized cardiovascular risk factor?"

What value does a study have when reliant only upon the mothers' memory, in some cases 2 decades later regarding early feeding methods of their infants?

The study defined prolonged breastfeeding as being only 4 months duration.

One flaw in the study is the lack of data on weaning. It was very unusual for anybody to continue breast-feeding exclusively for longer than 3 months in 1969-1975. This means that the children in this study will have been weaned at different times independently of the length of breast-feeding duration. Some mothers breast feed for perhaps one month and then transfer to bottle feeding. This behaviour was not allowed for and could possibly have skewed the data.

We also know that these adults were unlikely to have been exclusively breastfed. It didn't allow for the fact that most of the 'breastfed' subjects probably had other foods or artificial milk formulas (given the dates of birth of the subjects and the community norm at the time).

In other recent studies breastfeeding has been consistently linked with a lower risk of cardiovascular risk factors. Indeed, evidence is now emerging that it is the early introduction of non-human milks/solids which appears to be a crucial determining factor in increased cardiovascular risk factors.

OP posts:
Eulalia · 25/03/2001 10:53

Here is a summary of the Scottish study I mentioned in the previous post (reported in Scotland on Sunday). You can find this on www.nhsis.co.uk/breastfeed/

Does Breastfeeding improve the health of Scottish children? (Dr Stewart Forsyth)

This important question is being addressed by a research team in Dundee who are studying the relationship of childhood health to the type of diet the children received during infancy. Their study began in 1983, when 750 pregnant women from Dundee were invited to take part. Following the birth of their baby the research team visited them regularly at home and recorded many details on type of infant feeding and frequency of illness as well as other relevant social and family data. The information that was gathered was carefully analysed and the results clearly demonstrated that breast fed children had markedly less diarrhoea, vomiting and respiratory illness during the first year of life compared to children who were bottle fed. It was also shown that bottle fed infants were 5 times more likely than breast fed infants to be admitted to hospital with diarrhoea and vomiting illnesses.

At the age of 7 years the children were seen again and information was obtained on respiratory illnesses, growth, weight and blood pressure. Children who had been exclusively breast fed during the first 4 months of life were reported to have had significantly fewer respiratory illnesses during childhood compared to bottle fed infants. The breast fed children were also found to have less body fat and lower blood pressures than children who had been bottle fed.

This most recent information is of particular relevance to the health of the Scottish population as there is a very high incidence of heart disease, stroke and diabetes in Scotland and obesity and high blood pressure are recognised risk factors for these conditions. The children taking part in the Dundee study are currently being seen again at the age of 15 years to see if there are early signs of these diseases and to relate the findings to their diet during infancy.

There is now considerable international interest in the results of the Dundee Infant Feeding Study, as it has clearly demonstrated that the health benefits of breast feeding extend beyond the period of infancy and into later childhood. Current and future studies will be exploring the possibility of breast feeding influencing health during adult life.

(The above text is a summary of key aspects of the study by Dr S Forsyth)
References:
Howie PW, Forsyth JS, Ogston SA, Clark A, Florey C du V. Protective effect of breast feeding against infection. BMJ 1990; 300: 11-6.

Forsyth JS, Ogston SA, Clark A, Florey C du V, Howie PW. The relation between early introduction of solid food to infant illnesses and their weight during the first two years of life. BMJ 1993; 306: 1572-6.

Wilson AC, Forsyth JS, Greene SA, Irvine L, Hau C, Howie PW. Relation of infant diet to childhood health: seven year follow up of cohort of children in Dundee infant feeding study. BMJ 1998; 316: 21-5

OK I need a break from this subject now!

OP posts:
Tigermoth · 26/03/2001 13:24

Eulalia, thanks so much for replying to the question I asked you on Friday. Your reply was so humane, balanced and well informed.

I was lucky that I b/f my first son wihtout any major difficulty,learning as I went. I had more problem with my second, and my experience of hopitals really mirrors what you describe.

I started b/f from birth but at 7 days he was taken to a paediatric surgical ward with a suspected hernia. I was with him and still b/f but due to the medication and anaesthetics, he was dozy and not as hungry as he should be. Consequently, my breasts were even more like swollen ballons than is usual at this stage, and I began to feel really unwell. I suspected I was getting mastitus and made this known to the nurses. I felt almost invisible to them. Their attention was focused on my son.They were very kind, but busy and not forthcoming with practical help. I really had to stamp my foot to get access to an electric breast pump - and then couldn't use it properly because no one helped me at all or checked up on me. I resorted to self-help. I got my husband to get me some Kamilosan ointment and got in lots of hot baths to ease the pain in my breasts and to help me to to hand express milk. I came through it, but how it spoilt the precious first weeks with my newborn!

Lil · 26/03/2001 14:36

Eulalia, I think you might be getting sick of this board! but a quick questio..do you know when formula first became available in this country?

Tigermoth · 26/03/2001 15:40

Another thought. Eulalia, this isn't aimed exclusively at you, because as Lil says, you've researched and written such a lot for this board already, and I'm sure you have other things to do as well!!

Anyway with regards extended b/f and 100% b/f, Has anyone had the problem I encountered with disciplining my eldest son?

While I B/f my youngest son, my oldest was prone to running a wee bit wild. Although I made a point of talking to him while b/f, so he felt included, he quickly sussed that I was pretty immobile and not the usual all-seeing, all-action mum he was used to.

He knew I would rarely risk an interrupted feed to march him upstairs to his room to 'cool down', for instance, and so, if I ordered him to do this, he would flatly refuse.

I used to let quite a lot pass over my head for the sake of a peaceful life. But this pressure was one reason why I stopped b/f my baby at 10 months and also why I resorted to mixed feeding earlier, so my husband could take over feeding if a discipline problem arose.

Has anyone else had a similar discipline problem and how did they cope?

Tigermoth · 26/03/2001 16:03

A quick PS to clarify my previous message - for me, bottle-feeding took less time than breast feeding, hence more time to spend on controlling older son.

Sml · 27/03/2001 08:51

Yes, I had exactly the same problem, the eldest two would run riot to try and provoke me while I was feeding the baby. I am afraid I took the easiest path and just let them do their worst, while trying not to get wound up about it. I've heard all sorts of helpful suggestions like reading them a story, but it rarely seems to work in practice. Cutest thing was small daughter sitting beside me breastfeeding her dolly!

Twinsmum · 27/03/2001 17:55

Not sure how the willies got into breastfeeding discussion but anyway:
1/ Little boys playing with their little willies in the bath is absolutely no different to them playing with their toes when they take their socks off. It's just another bit of themselves to poke and prod at.
2/ If/when they get to the stage where they realise it has other uses the worst thing anyone can do is make a fuss and start worrying whether it's sexual or not. The only issue we should worry about is teaching our children to respect their own and other peoples bodies and wishes.

Eulalia · 29/03/2001 10:23

Hello. I've had a rest!

Tigermoth: I expect your youngest was just comfort sucking rather than feeding. Certainly in my experience from about 3 months onwards feeds would only take a few minutes at a time. The rest of the 'feed' is just comfort which OK in itself leaves you tied up with baby. I would just give my son quick feeds but more frequently thus allowing me to get on with other things. Sometimes he would complain but I'd usually distract him. I would have longer comfort feeds at nap times. No 2 child will inevitably get less attention whether it is in regard to b/feeding or any other kind of attention.

Did your baby actually have a hernia? My son had one at 16 months - no problem with it but it was operated on. I am just wondering about the anaesthetic your baby had as my son was awake (and screaming!) within half an hour of the operation. Perhaps the anaesthetic is different for a newborn.

Lil - I don't know a great deal about formula milk but it was invented around the 1930s but has changed a lot since then. It was called formula because in the USA it was only prescribed by special doctors who kept the ingredients secret and thus mixed up this magic formula and then charged vast sums of money for it. It was of course promoted as being better than mothers milk and some of this legacy even remains today. The early formulas were pretty hopeless, leaving in substances that were not needed by the child and omitting those that were, for example some had too many metals eg iron, zinc, copper, manganese in them causing all sorts of horrible reactions and even deaths. Scientific techniques were not available to study the components of human milk and how the milk is processed when in the body until fairly recently. Therefore with formula milk often too much of certain nutrients were put in the milk just to make sure that the child would get enough. We now know that this is dangerous. Even today discoveries are being made about human milk.

Anyway it was marketed aggressively when it first came on the market, particularly in 3rd world countries where women were not well educated and the terrible thing about this is that many didn't have access to clean water and heating equipment and hence sterilising of bottles was nigh on impossible. Because many gave up breastfeeding needlessly many children died.

Because of this and multinationals such as Nestle engaging in unethical practices the International Code of Marketing of Breastmilk Substitutes was adopted by the World Health Assembly in 1981 as a "minimum requirement" to protect infant health. The International Code was prepared by the World Health Organisation (WHO) and the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) after a process of widespread consultation with governments, the infant feeding industry, professional associations and NGOs.

The Code basically states that formula shouldn't be promoted in preferences to breastfeeding, no free samples handed out to hospitals, no advertising and so on. Hence why we never see an advert on TV or in a magazine of a baby feeding from a bottle. Some countries even today break the Code.

OP posts:
Lizp · 29/03/2001 20:03

Eulalia, so what do thay count as 'free samples' then ? The hospital were I had my little boy would give mothers little bottles of ready mixed formula in the brand of their choice with disposable teats etc which I assumed was all paid for by the manufacturers (there were no other freebies of any sort) And this is in a hospital that has some sort of charter mark for breast feeding I think. I was really struggling to get breast feeding sorted since he was a month early and had no suck reflex and really started to resent these nice little sterile packs arriving to the bottle fed babies when I had to wash and sterilise a breast pump every three hours and if I was lucky get 90 minutes of non feeding activity before starting again. And I still wonder if the formula the paediatrician insisted I supplement my own expressed milk with (via a nose tube) were the cause of his milk and egg allergies. I can really relate to excessive heel tests - by day 3 my little man screamed as soon as you took his socks off and we had to hold his feet in bowls of warm water to get any blood out of him at all. Hopefully everything will be much easier with number 2 - got any tips on nursing a newborn and a toddler ??

Eulalia · 30/03/2001 11:16

Lizp - I am not sure about what counts as free samples. I think these practices I mention occur in poorer countries.

As for tips on tandem breastfeeding try La Leche League where they have FAQs on just about every type of breastfeeding situation. They also have consellors you can email with specific questions. Go to www.lalecheleague.org/

Here is another site which has lots of links specifically for extended nursing and of toddlers -
www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/3490/aplinks2.html

this also provides links to useful sites -
www.borstvoeding.com/abon/bf-resources.html

When is your baby due and how old is no 1?

OP posts:
Tiktok · 30/03/2001 22:13

Eulalia's account of formula is pretty good, but not the whole story! Formula was first most aggressively marketed in the developed world, not the third world - and it still is in the US and elsewhere. Very few countries follow the WHO marketing code, though a number have bits of it in their laws.

The law in the UK is the UK law on infant milks, and it has some bits of the WHO code in it, but it is very weak compared to the code.

The 'free' bottles of formula milk are not really free - the hospital has to pay for them (that is, you pay for them through taxes, so they're 'free' in the same way your meals are free in hospital). It is illegal for manufacturers to give mothers free samples direct in the UK (not in the US).

In one hospital in London, mothers who formula feed have to bring in their own formula and sterilising stuff and bottles.

The principle of the WHO code is to protect all mothers and babies , however they feed, from inappropiate marketing techniques. After all, if you give formula, do you want to base your choice of your baby's sole nutrition on health grounds and good information, or on the brand which gave you the most samples, or which was discounted in the shop?

Trouble is, it is difficult to get good information about brands - are the manufacturers going to tell you the risks of using formula, the number of times batches are recalled on safety grounds, and precisely what ingredients are in them? Not likely.....

Suew · 30/03/2001 23:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

Eulalia · 31/03/2001 12:02

Thanks Sue - I'll be in touch.

Tiktok - I read most of my info in a book called 'The Politics of Breastfeeding' but I don't have it any more as it was borrowed, hence my sketchy memory.

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