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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Is our fighting scaring off the newbies? How do we stop?

129 replies

liquidclocks · 29/08/2006 12:20

We're getting new members all the time and this week I've read quite a messages from newbies saying how they're shocked and the argumentative nature of some of our threads. I don't know if I'm expecting answers or comments on my thoughts really though I'd be interested, I just needed to post what I'm thinking.

It seems, reading recent threads and SO many others, that no matter what we choose as mothers we will be criticised, privately or sadly as some of us have found, publicly. I think after a week of reading the latest batch of BF/FF threads I am left with a feeling of sadness that so many BF and FF mums feel unsupported, however, at least BFers have some consolation in knowing that their babies are getting the best?

So, instead of fighting each other, a recent thread seemed to have partly become a real discussion which is very refreshing. My hope for MN is that instead of shaming FF mums and making us feel worse, the BFers among you can help us 'next time' by not posting antagonistic thread titles designed to hurt feelings or shock and not de-valuing our reasons for 'giving up'. In return maybe FF can stop being so defensive about their decisions and just accept that that's what happened and maybe next time it will be different. I do believe we all genuinely make the best of the situation we're in at the time and no-one wants to do less than best for their precious baby.

What we NEED is a wider culture change that extends far beyond mumsnet. As long as we're arguing amongst eachother it's not going to happen. It's been proven that change happens faster and more readily when there is a consensus of opinion and the change is perceived as positive.

In 4 weeks time I hope to BF my second baby, I know if I'm struggling MN will be there for me. I think one of the best ways we can help new mums is to spread the word, get them to come to our forums and discuss their decisions before they're set in stone. We need to normalise BF but also some of the more activist BF need to accept that there are some real reasons why women can't, and it's not just that they won't.

So how do we do it? - do we need a national campaign, if so how should it be done so we don't alienate FFers who choose, make FFers who can't feel guilty and still satisfy the BFers?

OP posts:
expatinscotland · 29/08/2006 12:21

Yes, it is big style off-putting.

Lio · 29/08/2006 12:42

Hi liquidclocks, good thread. Recently I came close to making the reluctant decision to give up trying to BF (dd only got the hang of sucking after 5 days and a lot of persistence) and was too scared to start a thread about it here. I am not particularly forceful or confident, and if I had been bashed I would only have felt lower about it than I was already.

Although I don't feel I'm out of the woods yet, I have good help from my local BF counsellor (I had probs first time round too, so made sure I had met with her even before the birth this time) and hope you will find out before your baby arrives who to call in case you need help. Even if we can manage BF-ing for a few weeks we will have given our babies a good start.

foundintranslation · 29/08/2006 13:04

I think I can see both points of view. I succeeded with bf (and am still bf ds aged 15 months), but only after 4 weeks of bad initial advice, breast refusal, low supply, expressing and mixed feeding. MN supported me through that time, which was occasionally a really low one for me - I was utterly gutted at the thought that it might not work out. I don't recall anyone saying I'd be a bad mother if I gave up. But I did find out (albeit briefly) what it is like to be a ff against your will and how very very sensitive you get in that situation. I really do think that the vast majority of bfers on MN do not judge, do not set out to hurt, and just care about supporting women in situations where they are sometimes completely without support. I know the lack of support, correct advice and encouragement to bf I met in the healthcare system (apart from my MW) has made me passionate about encouraging people who are struggling and determined to train as a bfc when I have the time.

IMHO we should say that ff has risks, we should be critical of the formula companies' nasty little strategies and we should say that bf is by far preferable to ff if it's possible. OTOH though, I think that we also need to say that bf does not necessarly come naturally (I thought it did and learned the hard way), that there may well be problems and that in some medical or personal situations it might not be feasible to carry on feeding. I do think if there was more awareness of the fact that bf might be a struggle - BUT also more SUPPORT available - it would be less of a shock for women when they hit those problems and they might be able to see a way past them to be able to carry on. I think the message that some situations, especially as long as support is as lacking as it is, may not be compatible with bf (without causing great detriment to the mother's well-being and thus her relationship with her baby) and that mothers who therefore can't feasibly bf need not feel bad about it, is quite important. I do also think that FFers who choose not to try bf, without there being a particular situation, are capable of squaring that decision with themselves and that there's no extra need to reach out to them.

A natonal campaign would be a fab idea - not just to reach mothers but also to raise bf's general 'acceptability' in society. I'd love to see a public information film, for instance.

MrsFio · 29/08/2006 13:05

I was quite happy that by the time I joined mumsnet I had already got past the baby stage of my kids, and they are now school age. otherwise I would have been completely put off by mumsnet also. i was a young naive mother who used to carry her around the house all day and do nowt much else

MrsFio · 29/08/2006 13:05

that would be carry my children......

fatfox · 29/08/2006 13:13

Liquidlocks

On the fighting generally; its very off putting. Some threads have descended into abuse and name calling. The grammar school thread is a really good example of how people can debate in a grown up way; but the "Church schools" and "Slapping" threads are pathetic and offensive even.

What's worse is when newbies came onto the Slappers thread and commented about how awful it was, they too got abused!!!

Its a bit sad really isn't it

coppertop · 29/08/2006 13:13

I tend not to start threads in the bf/ff section but often read the threads asking for advice. I find the genuine advice-giving pots incredibly useful (thanks, Tiktok et al) but hate the more heated threads. Tbh if I'd just jooined MN I would've run for the hills after reading some of the posts. I hate the way some posters have been upset by comments about how they feed their children.

oliveoil · 29/08/2006 13:17

I couldn't give two craps how people feed their children, I did b/f, formula, water, fruit shoots, organic chicken and McDonald's nuggets so I am an official Know-It-All.

AvaLou · 29/08/2006 13:19

I haven't been here for long but have been amazed at some of the offensive posts.
Fair enough it was trolling but it seems to be quite regular posters that are often just downright nasty, and some who seem to have personal vendettas against other individuals and take their cat fights all over the boards, usually with little relevance to the OP.
There's a fine line between debate and arguement but personal attacks are really uncalled for, especially on such an emotive subject as ff/bf.

I also don't like the cliqueyness (percieved or real!?)

tiktok · 29/08/2006 13:38

liquid: I actually don't think mumsnet is especially argumentative. Maybe the newbies are shocked because they have not been elsewhere on the web yet - you can get really poisonous 'debates' anywhere. I have seen really very nasty stuff.

Having said that, there is no need for mumsnet to get anything like as bad as everywhere else!

So what to do?

I dunno. The activist mentality that does not accept that the strruggle to breastfeed is insurmountable for some, and a matter of choice for others, is not really present in more than a tiny number. So we could ban them??? I don't think so, though I really don't like that attitude at all.

I can't criticise people for being 'too sensitive' about formula feeding - they're often in a vulnerable place and hearing anything at all about risks of formula feeding can be hurtful (even the term 'risks of formula feeding' has to be used with care).

I don't think there is a solution, in fact.

tiktok · 29/08/2006 13:39

AvaLou: anything really offensive can be reported.

moondog · 29/08/2006 13:44

Whilst completely accepting what you say LC,I would hate to see the Breast/Bottleeeding section become one big anodyne 'infomercial' (which will invariably piss someone off)

It must be remembered that the person of MN is to entertain as well as to inform,and entertainment with a dydactic slant is merely propoganda.

I would really hope that anyone using MN is grown up enough to choose what they do/don't click on.

Elf1981 · 29/08/2006 13:49

My first thread on Mumsnet was about how to cope with other peoples feelings while TTC - my parents had always made a big thing of me "waiting" to have a child, ie when I'm 30, but I wanted to ttc at 22 and was worried about their attitudes. I got loads of good advice, I signed up and stayed on the TTC and pregnancy threads.

I have started some threads that were fine, supportive replies etc. Subjects being along the lines of what was a better place for a baby to sleep in the first weeks - moses basket, crib or cot. How to extend their sleep times. How often to bath. What car seat.

One thread I started that blew up in my face was when I was really upset that my FIL had crammed a chocolate button in my dd's mouth when she was about four months old. Despite me being obviously upset that they hadn't listened to me with her not being ready, certain mumsnetters jumped on me for it, telling me to let it slid and to basically grow up. At the time it annoyed me, especially a thread was set up about people whinging about their in-laws which I felt was partially directed at the thread I'd set up.

I've seen Breast vs Bottle threads blow up, what age to wean blow up. Any subject where people had had personal emotional experiences tend to go beserk. It is sad. I dont shy away from threads like that, I tend to vet my reply more than I would do usually.

So, in answer to the original question - yes, the fighing is off-putting. Also, sometimes mumsnetters need to think about the way their posts come across - sometimes a blunt "get over it" can be upsetting where as a "hmmm, well, in the grand scheme of things, it isn't that bad" will be accepted. Its the same across the board with all ways of communication, when you dont have the tone of voice and expression on somebodies face, words can take on different meanings. Accept that what may roll off your back will upset somebody else.

Re feeding - it is always going to be a problem. It will always be emotive. Women aren't supported in the first place with their choice. At my hospital, I had some lovely midwives, one who sat with me for hours on end. I did not know what I was doing. It was new to me. She sat with me, showed me different positions, helped me, gave me advice. When DD would not feed, she got out the expresser and fed her from a cup. I believe that without her support, I probably would have given up. However, at the same hospital, there was a midwife who was not so nice. Who on the morning I left, when I asked for a little help, she had a go at me, told me if I couldn't do it myself, I wouldn't be able to go home, that my child would starve etc. I cried in my room for an hour. DD didn't even want feeding, she fell asleep, woke up later and had a feed that I managed to do all by myself.

Some b.feeding women feel that they can be smug about the fact that they managed it, they survived the agony etc. Yes, it should be celebrated, but not at the expense of upsetting women who could not for one reason or another.

It is sad - the levels of breastfeeding is shockingly low. Of the women I know from work who were pregnant at the same time as me, I'm the only one still breastfeeding a year (almost) on. I'm the only one who lasted past six months, and in most cases, past six weeks. I'm the only person to express at work for while I am away. But it does not give me the right to be judgemental over them. We're all doing the same job - raising our children to do right in a world that is so often so wrong. Yes, pass on experiences, pass on advice if asked, but dont be judgemental.

One woman I know is pregnant now, she'd been pricing out the cost of formula. She asked me whether or not breastfeeding was painful/difficult. For a moment I did not want to say anything as I know how it has exploded on mumsnet. The only advice I ended up giving was "try, if you can get past the first six weeks, good job, if not, you'll have done good for what anti-bodies you have passed on in that time", which is what I was told on mumsnet.

I dont know what the solution is regarding b.feeding and f.feeding. but I believe it starts with acceptance of the other route, that neither are "right" but just "right for me".

JessaJam · 29/08/2006 13:51

hmmm
One of my earliest posts was on a FF/BF thread, as a naive newbie I had no idea it was a 'hot' topic, so off I happily posted...and found myself in amongst such "names" as hunkermunker and harpischordcarrier...yikes...
But, it didn't put me off or scare me away...obviously...

Agree, don't want MN to become all cuddly and vommy...should be allowed to say what we think, but should also have to take other people's feelings into consideration...oh, wait...that's just being reasonable isn't it

Elf1981 · 29/08/2006 13:51

ooops sorry for the long post! please dont be frightened to read it, I'd like to know what you feel about my ramblings!

expatinscotland · 29/08/2006 13:52

I thought this was about bf/ff topics and not MN in general.

I usually avoid those b/c there is, tbh, a Nipple Nazi brigrade feeling to most of them.

Also, that time is passed for me now.

clairemow · 29/08/2006 13:58

I think sometimes people are misunderstood in their posts. I don't mean the really offensive and personal ones, of which I have seen a few..., but sometimes it is easy to get the wrong end of the stick as we aren't talking face to face. Also I think it is easier to be rude to someone you can't see and don't know. This is not meant to be an excuse, we need to remember everyone on here is a person not just a paragraph or two of typing.

Of course there will always be disagreements on MN, as people have very diverse opinions, experiences and outlooks. This is to be expected. But I always re-read my posts before actually pressing send, esp if it's been a bad day or it's a subject I feel really strongly about. Even still it is possible to offend someone without meaning to...!

Generally though, I've found MN to be more supportive than not, otherwise I'd have abandoned it a long time ago!

liquidclocks · 29/08/2006 14:09

Don't have time to read all of thread now (supposed to be working) but thanks for posting and I will later on, what I've read so far seems very thoughtful.

Do you really think it's an impossible situation Tiktok?

(And btw thanks to you and mears I've managed to get the pre-delivery support and post-natal plan I'll need to make BF more likely to be a success this time )

OP posts:
Ags · 29/08/2006 14:16

MN is, in the main, a supportive website where the information available from others is just mindblowing. I often trawl through topics looking for information which is so useful.

I think the downside is, as you say, the fighting and also for newbies the dread of posting a thread on a much covered topic. I think that the dismissive way some people's threads are answered is awful and would put me off posting my own.

harpsichordcarrier · 29/08/2006 14:30

I think it is a good question liquidclocks.
I don't have much time to post now, but I will say this - I think some of the issues are much much deeper than what is actually posted. For example, if there is an article about issues to do with the benefits of bf for example, often the reaction is - oh just another stick to beat the formula feeders with. (Something very similar happens, ime, when some research is published regarding childcare - the reaction is - oh just something to make mothers feel guilty.) Some issues are just hairtrigger I think - it is difficult for people to react calmly to them. So in many ways, the content of what is posted is largely irrelevant because the posters have already had the arguments in their heads.
I think for my own persepctive the following would help:

not lumping together bfeeders as one group, formula feeders in the other. It is unhelpful and damaging and irrelevant.

accepting that the way we feed our babies matters, in all possible ways. And to allow due respect to everyone who makes decisions about how they feed their babies, and due respect to those who are trying to change the currently (crappy) status quo ithis country. To stop peddling the lie that bf somehow somehow doesn't matter - it does, to many many women, hence the huge amount of strong feelings on the subject.

to stop this reflex chucking around of insults of the nastiest kind - "mafia, militant, zealot, Nazi, rabid". This is unpleasant hurtful and uncivilised. To suggest that it is OK to insult bfeeders because they are not the underdog, and know they are doing the best thing for their babies is - frankly - trite. Because these kind of easy insults deter people from offering the kind of peer support on here that liquidclocks refers to as being so important. Last week, if someone had come on here asking whether they should give up bf I would have given them the best possible support I could. This week, I am feeling inhibited because tbh there is only so much name calling I can stand before I think it isn't worth it. (the extended bf stuff I won't even get into - being called a pervert and sick, who cares really?)
Jessajam - I would be interested to know which thread you mean, and I hope I didn't post anything upsetting. I do try to have the utmost regard for other peoples' feelings, but inevitably there is some potential for misunderstanding. if there as, I of course apologise unreservedly.

harpsichordcarrier · 29/08/2006 14:32

apols for typos. I am bf, as usual

JessaJam · 29/08/2006 14:35

hc it was months ago...it was a bit of a troll-y one iirc someone saying they "enjoyed" ffing and why shouldn't they admit it? But with undertones of "so F**k you Bfers" and referring to militant bfers...ho hum.
I was still a bit raw from "failing" to bf...and felt very defensive and as if bfers had it easy! (ha ha ha ha ha! See what you learn from MN??!!.

JessaJam · 29/08/2006 14:36

and close brackets!! )

liquidclocks · 29/08/2006 14:47

Would much rather be BF than sat behind a desk at nearly 36 wks pg! (hope I still feel that way in 5 wks time ;)) And I really am going back to work after this post!

So, should we report it when people use these derogatory terms? Would it deter people from being rude and insensitive if they knew their posts would be deleted?

And what words should we use to descibe the more 'vocal' BF advocates? Activists?

BTW, I agree about the crappy situation BFers face at the moment when feeding their babies in public or even at home. Hoping that BF works out for baby and I this time but still slightly nervous about what I'll do when for example FIL/BIL etc. in the same room - almost easier to be in a restaurant full of people I don't know. I have to say that I've been on the receiving end of some horrible stares and comments as a FFer too - I really don't know if it's possible to avoid all nasty comments/discomfort.

Elf - part read your post, will fully read in a bit.

OP posts:
tiktok · 29/08/2006 14:48

'Fraid so, liquid....I think there is no answer to it!

Enjoying reading the thread though and I think it's good to have a reminder every so often of the effect on newbies.