Is our fighting scaring off the newbies? How do we stop?

[liquidclocks]

We're getting new members all the time and this week I've read quite a messages from newbies saying how they're shocked and the argumentative nature of some of our threads. I don't know if I'm expecting answers or comments on my thoughts really though I'd be interested, I just needed to post what I'm thinking.

It seems, reading recent threads and SO many others, that no matter what we choose as mothers we will be criticised, privately or sadly as some of us have found, publicly. I think after a week of reading the latest batch of BF/FF threads I am left with a feeling of sadness that so many BF and FF mums feel unsupported, however, at least BFers have some consolation in knowing that their babies are getting the best?

So, instead of fighting each other, a recent thread seemed to have partly become a real discussion which is very refreshing. My hope for MN is that instead of shaming FF mums and making us feel worse, the BFers among you can help us 'next time' by not posting antagonistic thread titles designed to hurt feelings or shock and not de-valuing our reasons for 'giving up'. In return maybe FF can stop being so defensive about their decisions and just accept that that's what happened and maybe next time it will be different. I do believe we all genuinely make the best of the situation we're in at the time and no-one wants to do less than best for their precious baby.

What we NEED is a wider culture change that extends far beyond mumsnet. As long as we're arguing amongst eachother it's not going to happen. It's been proven that change happens faster and more readily when there is a consensus of opinion and the change is perceived as positive.

In 4 weeks time I hope to BF my second baby, I know if I'm struggling MN will be there for me. I think one of the best ways we can help new mums is to spread the word, get them to come to our forums and discuss their decisions before they're set in stone. We need to normalise BF but also some of the more activist BF need to accept that there are some real reasons why women can't, and it's not just that they won't.

So how do we do it? - do we need a national campaign, if so how should it be done so we don't alienate FFers who choose, make FFers who can't feel guilty and still satisfy the BFers?

and now shall we have a group hug?

may I take this opportunity to apologise to anyone I may have offended in the very, very many bf/ff debates I have been involved in - I always try to be civil. I have tried but failed to stay away from them - I can't help it, I love a good ruck!

(but I promise to try harder in future, I must have exhausted my points of view by now!)

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And I'll tell you something too-for every outraged poster shrieking 'How dare you say that you bitch!? you have a hundred more lurking in manner of car crash rubber neckers.

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No Oops.
I don't watch tv but I am in Turkey anyway.

Read some comments though and it sounded depressingly lowbrow (although,lentil weaver that I am,I couldn't countenance stuff like co sleeping and whathaveyou.)

moondog the trick is not to get wound up though
just accept people do have other opinions

I don't get wound up.
I do accept that people have different opinions.

I completely agree with dinosaur. i think her post says it all really

oops, well put.
dinosaur, yes I agree but the problem is when the people who post those helpful/supportive comments are then considered to be fair game because they are part of some mythical subset of breastfeeding nazis whose sole aim os to make other women feel bad.

But you can't stop people who just want a dingdong and there are plenty of those!!!

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Desparatescousewife - that must have been very difficult for you emotionally and practically - I don't thinl my DS wuld have taken puree that young. My mum had a similar experience with my younger brother though so I was aware it does happen.

I've never actually heard a FF mum deny that breast is best or argue that formula is better. I think this seems partly to do with (from my perspective) most FF mums posting on MN have actually tried BF, though I know a few haven't. There is therefore an assumption that this is the case on the whole wheras actually we know from statistics that there are a lot of mums out there who don't even consider BF. I think most FF on MN are VERY aware of the benefits of breast feeding and the risk associated with FF but emotinally it's difficult to reconcile the knowledge that you're doing your best even though you intellectually know it's not the best option IYSWIM. Being attacked (as either a BF or FF mum) for our decision/situation brings out our defensive nature as human beings so we're more likely to retaliate in kind, this seems to be the point at which many threads degenerate, unfortunately it seems to only take one unkind remark (from anyone) to spiral downwards.

Personally I feel quite envious of people who can BF but perhaps I don't always appreciate that it may have been very hard for them to get to that point. I suppose I see a BF mum and think 'well, you're where you wanted/expected/hoped to be' wheras many FF mums are where they wanted/expected/hoped not to be.

moondog, I agree looking a MN there does seem to be a disproportionate amount of insults towards BF mums but I have myself experienced RL situations in which I've had to justify why I was feeding my baby from a bottle. It upset me a lot at the time (though it wouldn't now) ad I ended up divulging mine and DS's medical history to a stranger - shouldn't have done really but I felt a need to 'redeem' myself. I work with people who have various disabilties and they tell me similar things about feeling a needto explain things to strangers so it's not exclusively a baby feeding issue. Some members of the public out there are just nosey and ignorant.

Sorry if I upset anyone with this one - I think I'm part way through 'reconciling', not all the way yet.

Yeah, some newbies will be scared off if they log on at the wrong time, on the wrong thread and then unwittingly make the wrong sort of remark to the wrong sort of person.

But I think most message boards are like that and so people shouldn't be too surprised when a bunch of cuddly mums turn into scary monsters.

I'm a newbie and I get the feeling that some posters do step in if things turn nasty - what a bunch of mums, eh!

and that is what is good about mn
all the differing opinions

Were the commenmts sneery in tone LC?

In RL,I would never ask someone why they bf or ff.

If it was someone I knew,I moght say 'How is feeding going?' and leave it at that.
I would never even ask 'Are you bf/ff?' as countless people asked me!

liquidclocks it was upsetting at the time, re ds2 but it is life
If it wasnt for weaning him early, and having a gastromy button fitted at 7months
he would not have survived.
I tried the breast, I couldnt do it
and I dont feel any guilt whatsoever

thankfully I am well away from baby stage now

Moondog - yes, the comment I'm referring to was from someone who was just far too opinionated and I should have known better than to get involved but we all know how it is when you've just given birth and ultra hormonal. I also had a number of comments that were less 'sneery', just insensitive. I do think some of the problem is tat people just don't appreciate what an emotive thing it is to find you and your child just can't work out together what you perceive should be one of the most natural things in the world (though in reality after spending hours on MN I know now it isn't).

But then it's only like a comment I had recently about wearing dead animals (shoes) from a lady in my local health food shop - according to her because I eat meat and wear leater I'm not allowed to buy organic tea or aluminium free toothpaste.

I can see this from both sides in a way.

I am very, very pro-breastfeeding and in RL try to encourage people to at least give it a go, and importantly to get specialist heap from NCT, La Leche etc if things are not going well.

OTOH, I am myself a 'failed breastfeeder'!

When I see the breast is best posts on here, which ime are more 'in your face' than anything I have encountered in RL, I have both a logical (good) and emotional (not so good) reaction to them!

The logic is 'well yes, that is an interesting view', the emotional, 'when the fck will they stop going on about it, how much more fcking facts do we need rammed down our flipping throats, before they stop going on and on and bloody on about it!'

I really do feel, that there is very little that could possibly be left to say about the positive aspects of breastfeeding on MN. Really! Perhaps the general b/f threads have just had their day on MN. Nothing new left to say, so people just pick over the bones of past fights and disagreements.

However, on a case by case basis it is still important to provide support to newbies, and to those who are making choices as to how to feed their babies. And it is hard to reconcile these two positions. Maybe us oldies have to just keep off the threads and maybe the pro-breastfeeders just have to be a bit more aware of the sensibilities of those who have chosen (or not) to breastfeed.

Incidentally, I have never ever had anyone make any negative comments to me, in all my time breastfeeding and bottlefeeding in RL, on either one of them. However, the same cannot be said for MN!

Oops that should say:

...those who have chosen (or not) to bottlefeed.

I can't remember who posted it but I also agree the new topics that just say 'look at new WHO advice on bf' or some such are a little unnecesary, especially as mothers who bf or ff surely know the benefits anyway.
I'd prefer if this little bit of mumsnet was more advice and less preach , and especially for formula feeders.

AL,I'm not clear on what you mean.
Do you have an issue with someone alerting people to the WHO guidelines?

How would you define those guidelines?
Preaching or advice?

Soapy,you can't say these threads have had their day!Life goes round in circles as does MN.Each time the topic comes up,a mixture of old and new MNers surface.

Eventually the long term hardcore may tire and retire but maybe they won't.

i am a newbie to mn although onto baby no. two so far it has helped me feel less lonely as an extended bf'er. i do find that as a bored sahm (mainly cos i have moved to a new area where i know noone) i find the debates on mn to be invigorating and am not even slightly offended as i am v comfortable with my choices re. feeding etc. however and as i have little challenging debate in my rl going on at the moment - unless you count arguing with a 2yro about why they should try some broccoli which feels much more futile and disheartening to me than the ff/bf debates on here - i have to admit i enjoy the rough and tumble of the debates here it shows people care about what they are saying and apart from outright personal insults there is nothing wrong with challenging other peoples opinions.

nice post soapbox - I agree with all of it.

I have not read the whole thread but my opinion in response to the OP is as follows:

The BF/FF area of MN is exceptionally valuable to all who use it. The most valuable threads are those where the OP is basically a "help me" of one form or another. As a mother with limited support in RL MN has a wealth of caring MNers whos goal in responding to these "help me" calls is to do just that - HELP. We should not be looking to take that away from MN in any way shape or form. The same is true for FFers (having been on both sides of a fence, and now sitting on the latter). In these "help me" requests it is unusual to stimulate the type of heated debate & argumentative language that liquidclocks talks of.

There are, however, threads which appear to be quite blatently started to cause debate and set one against another. Even in the OP there is nothing to be gained other than upsetting a portion of MNers, be they BFs, mixed feeders or FFers. There is no value in starting a post with a title or OP that is aimed at upsetting others. There is no value starting a thread just to say "hey look at what I can do - and you have failed". There is no point in starting a thread to say "I hate BFers". There is no point starting a thread telling FFers that they are "posoining there children". None of these threads help BFers or FFers - so who do they help? I think everyone here knows the type of thread I am talking about both now and at the time. After all posts 2-10 on that thread are usually making reference to the fact that a slagging match has just been started. If you want to tell a BFer that is thinking of quitting that formula is junk - fine tell them - but in response to the question - tell them in an infomrative way to help them make their decision. If you want to tell a BFer that they are being rabid - fine tell them - but in response to a specific incident & at the time.

So my suggestion - in order to keep MN a friendly place is to limit discussions to those that are useful & have someting to be gained by someone.
Ask yourself this - What is going to be gained by me or others by the starting of this thread?

I would suggest that nobody gained from the recent threads about "rabid BFers", "junk food" formula and "FF=180 mars bars". If you think I am wrong about this please let me know.

I think the most important point about this thread is that the MN community has identified that there is an issue with the tone of some discussions - we all need to help address the issue raised.