Is our fighting scaring off the newbies? How do we stop?

[liquidclocks]

We're getting new members all the time and this week I've read quite a messages from newbies saying how they're shocked and the argumentative nature of some of our threads. I don't know if I'm expecting answers or comments on my thoughts really though I'd be interested, I just needed to post what I'm thinking.

It seems, reading recent threads and SO many others, that no matter what we choose as mothers we will be criticised, privately or sadly as some of us have found, publicly. I think after a week of reading the latest batch of BF/FF threads I am left with a feeling of sadness that so many BF and FF mums feel unsupported, however, at least BFers have some consolation in knowing that their babies are getting the best?

So, instead of fighting each other, a recent thread seemed to have partly become a real discussion which is very refreshing. My hope for MN is that instead of shaming FF mums and making us feel worse, the BFers among you can help us 'next time' by not posting antagonistic thread titles designed to hurt feelings or shock and not de-valuing our reasons for 'giving up'. In return maybe FF can stop being so defensive about their decisions and just accept that that's what happened and maybe next time it will be different. I do believe we all genuinely make the best of the situation we're in at the time and no-one wants to do less than best for their precious baby.

What we NEED is a wider culture change that extends far beyond mumsnet. As long as we're arguing amongst eachother it's not going to happen. It's been proven that change happens faster and more readily when there is a consensus of opinion and the change is perceived as positive.

In 4 weeks time I hope to BF my second baby, I know if I'm struggling MN will be there for me. I think one of the best ways we can help new mums is to spread the word, get them to come to our forums and discuss their decisions before they're set in stone. We need to normalise BF but also some of the more activist BF need to accept that there are some real reasons why women can't, and it's not just that they won't.

So how do we do it? - do we need a national campaign, if so how should it be done so we don't alienate FFers who choose, make FFers who can't feel guilty and still satisfy the BFers?

As a new poster on MN (joined last week) the entire BF / FF debate threads baffle me and I wouldn't dream of setting foot onto one of those threads other than by accident or as a temporary spectator, marking particularly virulant comments (and who makes them, so as to avoid them) as I go...

I think the pitfall of any open and genuinely anonymous talk board is that people feel too safe when they start "flaming". They are able to fire off aggressive posts that satisfy the adrenaline rush often with little or no real consequence.

At the same time, I think others can take people's comments too seriously and too much to heart - again, by reacting emotionally to them and firing back. But who actually CARES what a total stranger thinks, really?

When I joined I noticed a proviso on the home page which asked for consideration when posting, that this was a place for support, not criticism. I do not find that to be entirely the case and think that probably a bit more monitoring and maybe in extreme cases, booting people off might do the trick...

I don't entirely agree with the argument that nobody gained from any of those threads. I didn't see the one about rabid bfers but I thought the original article arguing that formula was junk food was worth reading, (though as it happens I disagreed with it), as were the responses on that thread.
I also don't agree that bfers already know the benefits of breast milk so there's no need to revisit the subject - personally I am always interested to see new research.
There should be space on MN for opinions on all sides to be expressed. What we should expect, though, is that posters should try to respect the sensitivities of others and not post this info in an inflammatory way. No need for wholesale censorship or removal of sections of the site though!

It's also not as simple as 'do we bf or not?' Those of us who bf still need to make decisions about how long for, do we do it exclusively, etc. Even having bf once I personally still have a lot to learn. Also you can find info on MN of a much higher quality than that given at antenatal classes, government leaflets etc - more up-to-date, people who can give proper references, etc.

Some people have more important things to worry about in all honesty

Yes breast is best but some people dont care to breastfeed anyway, for whatever reason despite having the facts. I think this discussion will go on forever I dont think it was much tamer when I joined many moons ago anyway, not on this subject anyway

Whilst harpsi and i dont share a brain, in this case she has said everything that is on my mind.

I also agree with Kathy's posts. Jools, your open apology was noted...

Have to say, if i see one more post where breastfeeders are categorized, and by way of an insult such as "nazi, mafia, rabid etc etc" I shall be forced to start referring to "formulafeeders" as "SMArmy". Hope thats okay?

I'm mystified by the idea that we shouldn't exchange facts and information because it gets a bit boring for the people that have read them before, or because it makes people think 'how many more f*cking facts do we need?' when they have been here for a while.

People are having babies all the time, and newbies come on to MN every day, and with the same rubbish info and support a lot of the time...and they ask the same questions as a result. How many times do we get a question 'how can I increase my milk?' or 'does it matter what I eat when I am breastfeeding?' or 'will it affect my bf if I give a bottle?' and so on.

I don't care if the info I give is boring to those who have seen it (or similar) before. And if someone says (as they did recently), 'breastfeeding only makes a difference at first' I am going to counter that with some information - not personal opinion, or prejudice, but information.

Mumset is huge - there are plenty of other threads people can join in with if they get bored with this folder

Oh, it's not just breastfeeding. One of my major issues this year - my older daughter's after school care, and what I do about it - is something I just haven't ventured onto MN with as I could face the flames I'd get for using after school clubs. I'm quite serious.

I'm a breastfeeder (or rather was) and although I may not need new facts I will still read those threads for moral support.

The point about being off putting is really important though. I'm still a newbie (2 weeks) and have been completely put off getting involved in some discussions I feel passionately about, as I've seen other people called names, called stupid etc for daring to express a view. A group who agree will get on and bully someone - all of a sudden the likeminded (of the victim) dissappear, leaving one person being bullied by the rest.

When people can't win the intellectual debate, they resort to getting heavy. Its extremely off putting.

I'm no shrinking violet, but I don't want to come off a session on MN with a nasty taste in my mouth.

fatfox, I thought you were a namechanger - you are an asset o mumsnet i really like you, please stay

MI, after school clubs....how could that kick off????

Mrs Fio, who did you think I was before? Someone nice I hope

oh yes someone nice

I am also a new poster, although have read a few of the feeding threads as this is always my 'big issue'!!
so just a few thoughts...
I agree with the person who said it's not a clear bf/ff split-
I am currently doing equal amounts of both with my nearly 4 mth old:
I have bf her since birth, with some bottles of formula -I used to express for night bottle feeds by dh but occasionally used formula when hadn't managed to express
I went into hosp without her for 3 days when she was 4 wks, she was ff then, then we got bf back (I'd lost milk when I came home) grad over 2 wks with ff top-ups.
Bf her until recently when started some ff - I've had 3 bouts of thrush and my milk supply seems to have dropped - despite best efforts to increase it (yes, have tried all the strategies!) and I'm going back to work p/time in 5 weeks and know I will not be able to express at work due to realities of my job, so she will have bf am and pm and more when I'm at home if poss, and ff when she stays with my mum.
So, does this make me a bf-er or a ff-er???
IMO, I am feeding my daughter in a way that is the best for both of us in our circumstances. It's not what I planned pre-birth, but neither is...
...the nappies I use
...the fact I occasionally give her a dummy
...the way we put her to bed and where she sleeps
Obv feeding is pretty important. more so than the above issues, but I think we all just have our babies and then care for them and nurture them according to what works as we go along. I do not regret ff as it fits into the context of her life so far.
Sorry this turned into bit of a ramble, my point is I suppose, can't we all just be 'mothers who are feeding their babies' rather than ffers or bfers??
(I would be grateful for advice on how to ensure I keep the am and pm feeds going when I go back to work, and if bfeeding more on days at home could work, but have been reluctant to ask for this advice because I want actual advice not people saying 'but why don't you...'!!if that makes sense!)

Purplejenny

When I went back to work, I had to drop the daytime feeds, so breast fed DD morning and night and the childminder gave her a bottle during the day. At the weekends I let DH feed her with the bottle during the day (which he loved, as BF made him feel a bit left out) and kept to the morning/evening breast feeds. I think I didn't try and vary the pattern as I am very susceptable to blocked ducts and mastitis and consciously kept it clockwork to avoid having an over production of breast milk on the Monday morning. I tried expressing but had a couple of instances where I got very sore, so couldn't face it.

TBH I think both BF and FFers need moral support for different reasons, which we know about. I don't want to sound all wishy washy, but there are enough people "out there" guilt tripping Mums about all sorts, without infighting about how we choose to feed.

purple, start a new thread with those perfectly sensible questions.
You can't stop people coming up with ideas you may have already tried or which don't appeal to you - people want to help and they cannot know everything about you, about what you have tried, and about what is or isn't acceptable to you

MI

I agree - there'll be loads of others who use after school clubs and it would be interesting. I don't use them as our childminder picks up but I'm very interested to find out from other people what their experiences are of them.

My team run them where I work actually, so I could steal some ideas as well

my childminder will be picking up too.......should i also feel feel more guilty? but we dont have the option of after school anyway

Mrs Fio

Perhaps we should feel guilty - but I think my overwhelming feeling is one of extreme gratitude for having such a reliable childminder!!!

I'd feel even more grateful if she was a bit cheaper though

Wow, didn't expect such a response. Just taken e ages to catch up nowI've gothome from work. Don't know if it's possible to draw any firm conclusions but I have to say that reading this thread has helped me understand a bit more about BF. Keep thoughts coming anyway, it's really interesting to know what people think.

Elf - perhaps you should talk more to your colleague - I think if people had been a little more open and honest about BF, about how difficult it can be and not to expect it to come naturally, I would have been more prepared for what hapened when DS was born. Unfortunately it's doubtful it would have made any difference for us that time but I do think if you go into something believing it will be easy, you're more likely to give up when it turns out to be hard because you weren't adequately prepared for the challenge - either in terms of resolve or information. I've only found a lot of this stuff out since I started reading the threads on MN and it means I'm MUCH more prepared this time around.

btw MI - start your thread, I'm sure I can muster up some genuine advice for you

Regarding the
Q 'I'm going to wean my child at 3 months'
A 'Well we all love our children and want to do the best for them' comments -

No, we dont all need to be pally pally. I've seen weaning threads which were fine - I started one, got some good advice. However, I've also seen ones where everybody must have had PMT or something as the poor OP got ripped to threads. Then, if there are a flurry of weaning threads, you get some cliquey people starting a new thread, taking the piss basically.

Informed debate, yes. Open piss taking to a serious question / problem - strikes me as playground anticts tbh and not very helpful for the OP.

LC- I did speak to one colleague who is pg again. I said I'd give her any advice / help she needed if she asked I'd never barge in an put my oar in.
The reason she was not sucessful - crap midwives, crap health visitors etc. It's striking a balance for me - she's a really good friend and I would not want her to think I was over stepping the mark, or feel like she 'failed' if it did not work out and feeling as if I'd painted a rose coloured picture.

That was exacly the point I was makng Elf.

there is a vast difference from polite debate and name calling

I think that sometimes when we post, we forget how vulnerable the OP may be feeling.
I know when I started my weaning thread, I was so confused with all the information, didn't know what was right. If I'd had people going "you stupid muppet, these things are facts, six months, not before, otherwise you'll damage your child", I'll have been sobbing at the computer.
My thread about chocolate - yes, in the grand scheme of things, not a major issue, but when I posted I was very angry, and feeling like people were taking the pee was quite upsetting.
Nobody wants mumsnet to turn into a hippy commune, but a little less play groundy would be brill.
And I echo any post about not splitting us into groups or camps on things like b.feeding / f.feeding, SAHM / Working mum etc - they are the types of things that all posters come into a thread with emotions attached, and yes it is likely to get heated.