Is our fighting scaring off the newbies? How do we stop?

[liquidclocks]

We're getting new members all the time and this week I've read quite a messages from newbies saying how they're shocked and the argumentative nature of some of our threads. I don't know if I'm expecting answers or comments on my thoughts really though I'd be interested, I just needed to post what I'm thinking.

It seems, reading recent threads and SO many others, that no matter what we choose as mothers we will be criticised, privately or sadly as some of us have found, publicly. I think after a week of reading the latest batch of BF/FF threads I am left with a feeling of sadness that so many BF and FF mums feel unsupported, however, at least BFers have some consolation in knowing that their babies are getting the best?

So, instead of fighting each other, a recent thread seemed to have partly become a real discussion which is very refreshing. My hope for MN is that instead of shaming FF mums and making us feel worse, the BFers among you can help us 'next time' by not posting antagonistic thread titles designed to hurt feelings or shock and not de-valuing our reasons for 'giving up'. In return maybe FF can stop being so defensive about their decisions and just accept that that's what happened and maybe next time it will be different. I do believe we all genuinely make the best of the situation we're in at the time and no-one wants to do less than best for their precious baby.

What we NEED is a wider culture change that extends far beyond mumsnet. As long as we're arguing amongst eachother it's not going to happen. It's been proven that change happens faster and more readily when there is a consensus of opinion and the change is perceived as positive.

In 4 weeks time I hope to BF my second baby, I know if I'm struggling MN will be there for me. I think one of the best ways we can help new mums is to spread the word, get them to come to our forums and discuss their decisions before they're set in stone. We need to normalise BF but also some of the more activist BF need to accept that there are some real reasons why women can't, and it's not just that they won't.

So how do we do it? - do we need a national campaign, if so how should it be done so we don't alienate FFers who choose, make FFers who can't feel guilty and still satisfy the BFers?

one thing I don't like is some people will come in and post something like 'I'll get the popcorn out' , or ' has this kicked off yet?' which is not only useless but also seems to encourage others to try and start a ruck.

aha, yes I remember the one. the one where hunker got told off for swearing
that was a hideous "us and them "oh you breastfeeders are all like this...." one.
rude, unhelpful and divisive.
imho.

yup, that's the one! .
The general 'tone' of the OP had to be pointed out to me (by humker iirc!), that's how naive I was (and desperate for a bit of feeding method 'validation').

AvaLou...sometimes I found the 'popcorn' comments useful to highlight a contentious thread...so I wouldn't go leaping in all guns blazing, but actually read the posts carefully before typing a long and considered response, then deleting it an dmoving elsewhere!!!

liquid clocks

tbh parts of your OP are the reason why some newbies and others are put off the feeding debacle on mn

for example
"at least BF's have some consolation in knowing that their babies are getting their best"

that is a belittling statement imo

although think rest of post is good

it is that sort of attitude that gets people wound up imo, and alienates newbies.

maybe if we just accept that we all love our children
and will do our best by them
whether it be bf or ff

who is humker?

While I don't think we should be indulging in personal attacks, all being lovey dovey and 'everything is equally valid' would make for some fairly dull threads, don't you think?
eg
Q 'I'm going to wean my child at 3 months'

A 'Well we all love our children and want to do the best for them'

There has to be a fine line between spirted, entertaining and informative debate and hair pulling , school ground squabbles don't you think?

pmsl at "Q 'I'm going to wean my child at 3 months'

A 'Well we all love our children and want to do the best for them'"

what a nightmare that would be....

Joolstoo called me a "passionate breastfeeder" the other day, which I liked.
but tbh I think using any generalised term for "breastfeeders" is probably going to lead to problems.
e.g. "you breastfeeders all do this thing...."
I am not defined by my method of feeding, of course. none of us are.
If someone has a problem with a poster or a post, then I think the comment needs to be made vis a vis that post/er and not made more general.

but like mb I think a certain amount of robust debate is healthy. hence I don't mind being slagged off for extended bf. bring it on, I say. send the social services round, see if I care.

when my kids were little you were told to wean at 4 months anyway

I remember being worried when dd was 7 months and still not taking solids.....................

exactly mrs fio
when my eldest 2 were babies it was 3 months

times are just changing

So why is it offensive to say "at least BFers have some consolation in knowing that their babies are getting the best"? (that's a genuine 'why' btw - goodness I'm so anxious that this thread stays genuine!)

Do BFers not use this as some of their 'inner speak' to help lift them if they've had a rough day in the BF department? I really am sorry if I did cause offence.

I personally have used as my 'inner speak' when I had to FF DS1 things like "thank goodness for formula, he's still alive".

I suppose I just made an assumption that we use the good parts of what we do to help us feel better about the decisions we've made or the outcomes of bad experiences (I still don't really consider not BF a 'decision' - part of my inner speak!).

Liquid - found your thread.
Just thought I'd let you know that I joined MN well over a year ago and was initially scared off by the way people spoke to each other and me. I 'left' for several months and only re-joined when I got pg this time round and have mainly stuck to our ante-natal thread.
I don't think when answering a thread that one persons experience/advice is any less valid than anyone elses but I do think it's quite easy in print to be taken out of context and perhaps people don't always mean to come across the way they do, although I know there are plenty of people on here who seem to enjoy a good argument. I tend to steer clear of those!

I never said it was offensive, just belittling

we all know breast is best

but unfortunately some woman just cant do it

and that is what i was also trying to prove, that if we contradict a BF they start getting a bit uppity

I am not arguing about this, just seen this issue raised many times over the years on mn
and the result is always the same

also agree on this popcorn, has this thing kicked off yet
but it always happens

people are bery defensive on their views and opinions, including myself

as agree with mb and others that a healthy debate is great, without it turning into a slanging match

I have said in relation to the G*a F*d threads that I think some posts on here can be incredibly rude and offensive and it is not necessary to be rude to get across one's point of view. The two main ones are bottle versus breast and working mum versus SAHM - on other debates things do tend to be a bit tamer - I guess with the exception of the MMR where again some people tend to lose the plot.

I just wonder why people feel that (a) they have to justify their own position in relation to feeding/working and (b) why they feel they have to persaude others that they are doing wrong.

Are we all perfect mothers? Why is motherhood so political? It's hard enough without being whinged and preached at. Aren't we too busy to get on here and argue the same old tired arguments? If I work and breast feed until my child is 10 how does that affect your child? Equally how does it affect my child if you bottle feed and stay at home? It doesn't does it? SO why do we argue about it?

Maybe we could have a separate section for "lively devates" and everywhere else we stick to being kind and supportive. As I mentioned elsewhere, I am a member of a school governors forum which is very "well behaved". Compare it with another governors thread which is shockingly rude at times (and hosted by a respected newspaper educational supplement).

So dSW,what do we do then?
Not say it,because it upsets people?

I would really like to knowbecause I have never seen a satisfactory answer to this one.

and I do think there should be an "edit" function - I meant of course lively deBates.

I think Harpsichordcarrier is spot on about the issues being so much deeper than how they first appear.
We all bring different experiences to the table and often the problem is people not realising how different other people's experiences are.
When I first came on Mumsnet I was still feeling miffed about the utter pointlessness of the breast-is-best campaign as I'd experienced it (heavily skewed info coupled with rude broken-record midwives and no actual help) and even though I was lucky enough to bf with no particular problems I would quite happily have joined in a rant about breastfeeding fascists (very glad, in retrospect, that I didn't ). Since then it has been a revelation to me how other people's experience differs: not only do many people appear to come into contact with health professionals who push ff, not bf, but MNers are also having to deal with criticism from family and friends, rude comments from strangers, etc, all of which I have been lucky enough to never have to experience. (I take my hat off to MNers who keep going with bf despite all that, and I can see how utterly vital MN is to them as a source of support.)
I also think Harpsi is dead right about the importance of not bracketing people as bf- or ffers. Something else that I have learned since coming on MN is the extent to which, in a conversation, you can't make easy assumptions about who agrees with which post - I remember reading threads several months ago and assuming that people who were generally pro-bf were also pro- the small number of extreme and sometimes tactless posts that a minority of people were making, whereas now I would be far more circumspect about assuming there is any kind of silent consensus. I think, therefore, that when a few people start saying things that seem likely to upset, it can have a very positive effect when others step in to dissociate themselves from those comments.
(I am thinking specifically of a thread about a month ago in which lots of people pointed out that the title was potentially a bit unkind. The actual thread content ended up having some quite positive stuff in it, as well as linking to a very informative article - as Moondog says, it would be a pity if MN became too anodyne but I think it's possible for there to be a supportive consensus together with information and views expressed from both ends of the spectrum.)
I don't know whether I'd characterise MN as particularly argumentative or not - as Tiktok says, there is some far, far nastier stuff on the web, but equally, there are some very syrupy parenting boards and it's definitely MN that has the really meaty discussion and info (remember when someone on one of the other boards referred to MN as a vipers' nest and lots of MN posters changed their names to snakes?)
Of course, a key part of the MN experience is to be disagreeing vehemently with somebody on one thread and then coming across them on another and discovering they're the only other person in the entire world who really talks sense about epidurals/selective schools/the war in Israel, etc - I think if this could be communicated somehow to newbies (and the extent to which heated arguments do get made up) they would find the whole thing less off-putting.

Nice post Kathy.

A propos of nothing,it seems that breastfeeders are the brunt of more actual unkind comments than formula feeders,going on what is written hear and my RL experience.
You know the sort..'Yuck,that's disgusting' 'Isn't he a bit old for that?' and so on.

Formula feeders seem often to refer to unkind looks (which could be real or imagined) but I can't recall anyone on MN to be honest relating a tale of someone saying something horrid directly to them re formula.

Am now bracing myself and reaching for a cold beer.....

say it moondog

but you cant enforce your views and criticize

re on weaning threads,people criticize the fact that I weaned two of my children, one at six weeks and one at 2 months.
one was a gannet and it was recommended guidelines to do this a 3 months
and had to wean ds2 to keep him alive as he stopped breathing when he was suckling on breast or bottle

peoples situations are different and we should all accept that things might not seem the way they are

we can only go on our experiences,
isnt that the mumsnet ethos

But we can say it,right?

thanks Kathy, and I think that is an important point. Being pro-bf does not mean that I endorse all and any comments made by any other pro-bfeeders on here. Of course not. Nor does it mean that I am rabid about fruit shoots and McD's (my daughter has both, sometimes), nor that I am a hippy dippy lentil weaving loon. Stereotypes are dangerous and misleading.
In other words, just because moondog, hunker and I all feed our babies with our nipples doesn't mean we share a brain.

Re the 'horrible comment' I can't say that I ever had any horrible ones to me. I did, however, almost lose count of the meaning to be kind but amazingly patronising ones that alawys seemed to start 'Oh dear, you had to bottle feed.....did you try....X,Y,Z' None of these very nice women tried to be hurtful, quite the contrary, they were trying to be helpful. But they did treat me as if I were some form of brain dead moron who was going to wean her children onto chips and fags and extra strong lager.

HSC, or indeed, a nipple

I think the problem is formula feeders are treated as though they are a different species, on mumsnet. As I say i am glad I didnt find mumsnet when my eldest was a baby as quite frankly I had enough crap going on without being made to feel guilty that I couldnt breastfeed

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