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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Now here's an article that's going to settle the breast v. bottle debate once and for all...

272 replies

emkana · 25/04/2006 12:25

\link{http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article360047.ece\or maybe not}

I particularly like the paragraph about the German nutritionist Wink. Now that bit has totally convinced me that the benefits of b/feeding are being exaggerated. [snort]

Honestly, what a piece of cr*p.

OP posts:
MrsBigD · 27/04/2006 10:45

Blush brain not quite in gear yet this morning, only had 3h sleep thanks to 2 snotty kids.

That point is oh so true!

tiktok · 27/04/2006 10:45

But MrsBigD - you talk about pollution in mother's milk.

Do the cows who supply the formula live on another planet away from environmental contaminants? What about the synthesised prebiotics from algae and fish ? Vitamins added to the stuff?

Can it be purified in some unspecified way in the future?

I dunno....but who is going to test any futuristic 'supermilk' - your babies or grandbabies? Mine?

Formula as the equivalent of breastmilk is about as likely as artificial blood, and we don't see any progress on that - when people need extra blood they get donor blood, as a recognised adequate but necessarily second best to their own (and of course some people knowing they have an op coming up, 'bank' their own blood).

In any case, feeding - however it's done, breast or bottle - is more than just the milk, and it's a mistake to conduct a debate as if it was.

It's a relationship - whether breast or bottle.

That's why, when it's going wrong, it feels so crap - and it can feel crap bottle feeding when the baby is miserable, unsettled or ill, too.

Telling mothers who wanted to breastfeed that formula is just as /almost as good is not only a lie, it denies that their preferred feeding method is important to them.

joelalie · 27/04/2006 10:46

And presumably that is not a good idea??? I don't advocate anyone being made to feel guilty but is the only way to stop that by telling everyone to formula feed ....?

Harpsichordcarrier · 27/04/2006 10:47

I think joelalie is saying that, if the aim is to encourage bf (and I think it should be) then in encouraging bf and being clear about the benefits it is possible or even likely that those who haven't bf might feel guilty as a side effect. That is not the intention but it is inevitable I think.
The alternative is (I think) to downplay the benefits of bf and say inaccurate things about formula, therefore making guilt less likely, but also making bf less likely.

mcmudda · 27/04/2006 10:48

Great post joelalie Smile

I seem to be the only one that heard the downside of breastfeeding rather than any positives. My mum formula fed my and db from birth and was shocked to find out I was even considering the hassle of breastfeeding. Other mums I knew constantly moaned about the pain/blockages etc. No-one ever mentioned bonding or actually enjoying it.

I personally felt tha having nourished my babies for 9 months it was my obligation to continue nourishing them until they could have other sources of nutrition. There were bits of pregnancy that were sore and not fun (like sickness/SPD etc) but that's just what having a baby involves. Like Jolalie said - it never occurred to me that that should stop after baby is born.

So after a few weeks of cracked nipples, blockages, mastitis once and a very painful letdown (although still got that up til 16 mths with ds) I finally found breastfeeding satisfying, but I would be reluctant to use the word enjoyable. It was a pleasant surprise that it wasn't all hard work. I didn't breastfeed for my emotional gain; just the health benefits.

I've come very late into this debate - I always do this - takes me days to string a sentence together Blush

MrsBigD · 27/04/2006 11:03

tiktok... I said 'Some might say' not I'm saying :) However, one would hope that cows milk used in formula is thorougly tested for pollutants... at least I'd hope so.

as for 'supermilk' ... that's the future and I my crystal ball is cloudy Grin

Pruni · 27/04/2006 11:06

I know HC! (Re the writer having it arse about face.) But I still do think it's misogynistic to expect women to do all of this with very little political will behind it, that was my point. And not a very original one...
(I am hungover, hence not going into this more)

Caligula · 27/04/2006 11:11

I agree Pruni. And a sensible woman would have called for more generous maternity leave, not a flight to formula.

Harpsichordcarrier · 27/04/2006 11:13

Shock hungover on a Thursday...
nice work Pruni Grin

Pruni · 27/04/2006 11:15

For the record, though, not all bottlefeeders are living in a world where the very mention of breastfeeding is a personal attack. That doesn't mean that attacks don't happen though, so don't confuse sticking up for oneself in the face of ignorance with holding all breastfeeders responsible for one's own personal pain. It's not like that. Wink

Pruni · 27/04/2006 11:15

oh god I just read that back, i sound like a schoolmarm, sorry, blame the gallon of red last night...

Harpsichordcarrier · 27/04/2006 11:22

for the record I don't take every slagging of bfeeders here and elsehwere as personal attackes either
except the ones that are, you know, personal attacks Grin

Pruni · 27/04/2006 11:25

What, like "HC is a norkwielding milksquirter"?

Grin
Harpsichordcarrier · 27/04/2006 11:25

yes that kind of thing Grin

tiktok · 27/04/2006 11:29

I know you were not necessarily saying this, MrsBigD - that's why I said 'you talk about'.....:)

While milk used for formula is pasteurised, and this will remove active bacteria as well as helping to preserve it from going 'off', why would it be tested for environmental contaminants?? PCBs and other chemical residues and contaminants are in more or less everything. Cows are treated with antibiotics and other stuff to increase yield, which is one of the reasons some people, even those who aren't veggie or vegan. avoid dairy.

Mother's milk is not a 'pure' food, and contains this 'stuff' as well because we live in this dirty world, but the food is a live one and protective of the baby. The fetus is exposed to the same contaminants in pregnancy, and is likely to be at greater risk then.

If I had to use formula, I prob wouldn't go for the 'organic' stuff because I would be so sceptical of the claims. The cows eat grass and breathe air, and there is no way of being sure any of that is 'pure'.

MrsBigD · 27/04/2006 11:38

you mean to say the don't actually test foodstuff for possible high values of lets say lead etc? Shock

tiktok · 27/04/2006 11:52

I actually don't know, MrsBigD - there must be some protection for consumers, I suppose, as occasionally, batches of formula are withdrawn even at the point of sale because something has gone wrong with the ingredients or their contamination, but from memory, it's when something has gone awry at manufacturing or packaging stage, not the 'cow' stage. So there is probably spot-testing, maybe indeed for lead.

But there would be no point in testing the cows before the milk got to that stage because naturally enough, they would find stuff that is unavoidably present.

Bugsy2 · 27/04/2006 12:07

FSA control foodstuffs sold in this country & they monitor levels of potentially harmful ingreients in any food.
They published an extensive paper on dioxins & dioxin like substances in formula milk in 2004.

Apparently, infant formula and manufactured baby food are monitored as part of the pesticides surveillance programme run by the Pesticide Residues Committee (PRC).
Under European law, there is a maximum residue level (MRL) of 0.01mg/kg for individual pesticides in infant formula and manufactured baby foods. In 2005, tighter controls on these foods will be introduced for a small number of pesticides that are considered more toxic and have very low acceptable daily intakes (ADIs). The level of residues of these pesticides allowed in infant formula and manufactured baby foods will be lowered to make sure that babies and young children don't exceed the ADI. These are precautionary measures because most of these pesticides aren't allowed to be used in the EU.

tiktok · 27/04/2006 12:21

Thanks, Bugsy, good info.

Pesticide residues are only part of the story of 'what's in our food' of course.

MrsBigD · 27/04/2006 12:31

don't wanna hear what's in my food :) Bad enough that my bro is telling me off for using sweetner :)

Bugsy2 · 27/04/2006 13:03

The content of infant formula is also controlled by legislation: Statutory Instrument 1995 No. 77
The Infant Formula and Follow-on Formula Regulations 1995

I'm not entirely sure whether this has subsequently been superceeded by new legislation but that was the most recent SI I could find.

tiktok · 27/04/2006 13:39

I think that's right, Bugsy - this looks at the acceptabe parameters of fat, sugars, and so on. As far as I know it doesn't look at safety of individual novel ingredients or contamination, but I haven't checked.

moondog · 27/04/2006 15:13

Splendid post of 9:45 am Harpsi.
Terrifically thought out.

Broadie · 27/04/2006 16:57

Ok i'm going to stick my head above the wall for a second - though sometimes I find these breast versus bottle debates so tribal and passionate sometimes that I don't understand why there is not a middle ground.

I exclusively breastfeed, it was really hard to begin with, while I was pregnant I went to a breastfeeding workshop where they told us the benefits of breatfeeding versus the crime of bottlefeeding - preaching to the converted - I'd already made the decision to breastfeed just wanted the facts on what to expect and what possible complications. I wasn't warned about cluster feeding, knew nothing about feeding for 1 hour every 2 hours for weeks, did not know about blocked ducts or how to resolve before it turned into mastitis and certainly no amount of putting a silly plastic motionless doll would ever prepare me for a writhing new baby with milk squirting all over her because she kept falling off and we could not get the right position. Noone said that I would be sat feeding my baby frustrated and worried that I was a bad mother, wincing at the pain and crying my eyes out through exhaustion. My experience cannot be unique - when I asked for advise from Midwifes and health visitors I was fortunate to get pretty similar advice (I think thats quite unique) but my sactuary was walking into a breastfeeding workshop called Bosum Buddies every friday with lots of like minded mothers who shared the pain and frustration and delight. I thought of giving up many times over - it was guilt that kept me going. That and the fact that I wanted to breastfeed - so badly and now its pretty easy - i've returned to work, I pump, I feed my child. I kept going every week to Bosum Buddies until just before returning to work. It is run by a very accomplished breastfeeding counseller whom got me through the difficult times and let me know that it does get easier.

I have 3 other very close friends 2 have given birth within months of me and the other is pregnant now.

1 breastfeeds through the night and in the morning and the rest of the day he gets formula. He's a hungry baby - my friend desperately wanted to breastfeed but could not keep up with demand and her comprimise is to mix feed. The level of support she had was rubbish the HV was next to useless, mine was pretty clued up and very supportive, the midwife was pretty standard and she had little or no help from the breastfeeding counseller.

My other friend's baby was born at 26 weeks, she expressed morning noon and night to keep up her supply for 4 month so her daughter would receive breastmilk - when she came out of the special unit breastfeeding was so exhausting for the baby that she bottle fed her expressed milk and when her store ran out she turned to formula.

The friend who is pregnant now will likely breastfeed for the first 6 months and then wean onto formula when she returns to work as she did her first child, she has problems expressing but had no other problems and took to breastfeeding like a duck to water.

My friend with the premature baby still feels guilt for giving up the feeding - even though it was not working out for her and she was exhausted with expressing. I admire her for spending all that time expressing, visiting her daughter on an hour round trip at the hospital I'm surpised she had time to breath.

Can we not all just support 'Mothers' I would no more judge someone who is bottle feeding that I would someone who spends £500 on a baby outfit, or someone who uses disposable instead of reusable.

So in relation to this article. I think she makes some fair points. There is alot of hype about breastfeeding, the health care professionals are being targeted to bring up the numbers of breastfeeding mothers - yet that said the level of education that these 'professionals' who are front line support have is way below par. I think the medical stuff she quotes is an excuse - something she is using to justify giving up breastfeeding - for quite selfish reasons (i'm not saying that she is selfish, i'm saying the reasons are for her benefit first, her body etc.) The reality is that many woman have suffered much worse at the hands of breastfeeding - if she really wanted to breastfeed she would still be doing it as something quite primal takes over that simply will not let you give up. But it could be made easier if people had a good expectation and if people knew what to expect - i'm sure more mothers would give it a go and persevere because they know they can get support and the correct information. How many give up because they get competing information and no support?

That all said I understand why woman get so passionate about breastfeeding - but I also support a woman who feeds her child with formula and wish to god that there was a forum in which women could receive fair and unbiased advice on which formula's they should or could use. I wish that formula companies ethos was based on making hungry babies satisfied with the best and right ingrediants, rather than making the most money from the highest market share.

What I wish most though is that every baby was loved and cherished, kept warm and cosy and received the best possible care. I'm a good mother and I cannot fault my friends either - the fact that one feeds formula sometimes and the other feeds formula all the time is frankly none of my business and does not change the fact that they are fantastic mothers who love their children dearly. My mother never breastfed me, I was formula fed all the way - there was even less information when I was born - would I even question whether my mum was a good mother - not in a heartbeat - she was wonderful.

Being a mum goes deeper than just milk, there is a whole generation of formula fed 'adults' out there now. Being a mum is about making decisions for a dependant based on the circumstances your find yourself in and what you consider to be right.

Don't blast me for posting it here. There shouldn't be a breast v bottle debate imho, I would prefer to see us support every mother and not alienate people because the feeding choice is not as we would choose.

That woman should have been congratulated for giving it a go - anything is better than nothing, and we should mourn the fact that she had such crap information and hope that another person in her health authority has not suffered the same fate. Its a shame that in order to justify the decision to give up the 'facts' are way off the mark - but in such a poorly educated society on breastfeeding - I doubt if a health visitor or midwife will be able to argue against it.

Thats the real shame!

Debs

Broadie · 27/04/2006 16:58

Sorry did not mean to go on for so long - turned into a bit of an essay! oops!