It WAS very childish of me, but I got a dig in at some Formula companies today......

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

Got sent a market research survey today asking me my opinions on formula milk.

So i gave them.....

I have just read this thread (displacement activity, should be working).

I breastfed my ds for 10 months. Breastfed dd for 4 months and then switched to formula feeding (reasons - I was tired with two children, she was huge and hungry and I had to go back to work).

If I had known then what I know now (ie what I have learnt from mumsnet about what is in formula) I would have persevered. I feel like a such a mug looking back on it now - I did the same as beatie - went for the most expensive organic formula on the market.

I think better information would make a difference to women like me who didn't particularly have a problem establishing breastfeeding but then lose heart at 3-4 months when the baby is bigger, possibly more demanding and you are vulnerable to the 'almost as good' messages, the 'for hungry babies' myths, the 'formula will help your baby sleep through the night' promises.I wish I had questioned it more now.

Tiktok I think you have the patience of a saint on these threads - it reminds me of jimjams on the mmr threads at times.

Yes, I do agree that these are problems for the mother, however I disagree that breastmilk cannot harm the baby, does it not depend on the health of the mother? If your mother happens to be taking anti-depressants, or she drinks copious amounts of alcohol, or she is on stronger drugs, will this not in turn affect the health of the baby? Whilst breastfeeding I was told that I could not take any medication for my hayfever, or any strong painkillers. I presume this is because it will find its way into the breastmilk?

Is your little one ill Eulalia?

Very interesting post Rhubarb. Unless you have an inkling of how difficult bfing can be, you won't realise that you need to read around about it etc before the birth to get a better idea as to possible problems. The impression I got from the PG books was that you do skin to skin asap after the birth, your baby will latch on, and that's bfing cracked.

I agree there isn't enough education about bf in pregnancy. In our ante natal classes, there was one hour session on bf, in which dolls were passed around. It really didn't tell anyone anything.

And very good post Puddle. I agree that the "almost as good as breastmilk" lie that formula companies push is so influential and is what permeates our consciousness even when we're very pro bf. I too would not have given up as early as I did, if I had known what I know now. It's that message "closer to bm" "the nearest you'll get" etc. which is so pernicious.

Caligula and Puddle - I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps that's why I feel so strongly that these sorts of threads are necessary.

(Rhubarb, you can take ADs and breastfeed - you know that, surely?).

i was wondering that too hunker, possibly some of the very old ones are contraindicated for breastfeeding??

Looking back - I also find some of the breastfeeding information patronising. I would have liked more specific scientific information made available to me about how and why breastmilk protects a baby's immunity and how this immunity is affected even if a little formula/other food is given prior to 26 weeks.

When I had my first daughter I knew nothing about the gut lining, about different proteins. I assumed, like many others, that formula milk only affected a baby's immunity because they got less breastmilk.

I think these threads are necessary as you say Beattie - shame though that most people who become involved in them are mums who have/are either ff/bf, not often the mum-to-bes who would probably benefit most instead of getting the my baby is healthy so there/bf is the only way IMO type of posts

you've struck a chord with me rhubarb,

before having dd everything i read or was told about bf implied it should only hurt if your doing it wrong, your nipples only crack if your doing it wrong, etc, etc. that was blatently not true in my case. bf-ing physically hurt for the first week or so, and not just in my nipples, it was a blinding searing pain all the way back into my chest that left me gasping for breath and my dp worried sick. as well as that my nipples were so cracked my dd was spitting up blood that she was drinking with my milk. if it hadn't been for a very supportive public health nurse and sheer stubborness on my part i don't think i'd have kept it up. everything i'd been told pre baby implied that i must be doing something wrong to be in so much pain and i can't blame any woman for resorting to a bottle in the dead of night when they're in agony and don't have the support i had.

the discomfort eased for me after the first few weeks and i fed my dd for one year, and i'm planning on bf-ing my new baby when he's born too, however i wish i knew before dd's birth what i know now to prepare me.

I agree that there should be more easily accessible information available.

As you said, bf can have its downsides. IMHO, the fact that so few people are aware of the downsides means that they are more likely to give up when problems for which they were unprepared start to appear. If people knew that it might hurt at first, they might be more inclined to accept it as part and parcel of the whole deal, rather than look at it "It hurts... must be doing something wrong... mw/hv can't help... better turn to formula".

Similarly, people assume thay can always express. Well, I can't - at least not more than a pathetic amount. Some people interpret the lack of expressed milk as being indicative of a poor milk supply - but having successfully bf 2 dds, I know this isn't the case. Maybe it would help if people knew that in deciding to exclusively bf they might be signing up to do every single feed for six months or longer, with all the restrictions that implies. And so on.

The convenience thing is debatable. As someone who never feels entirely comfortable bfing in public, I sometimes think that formula might be preferable for when out and about. OTOH, a friend who bf dd1 and ff1 dd2 said that the only time she misses bfing is when she's out, b/c she finds it a hassle with all the required paraphenalia.

I think most of us are agreed that it should be a mother's own choice how to feed her baby, and she should do whatever she feels is best in the circumstances. And for that choice to be an informed choice, clear and unbiased information is needed. On both sides.

Newborns are often rubbish at feeding too. They dart their heads about the place, the rooting reflex is like little electric shocks being applied to their lips, they almost latch on then suddenly root off over their shoulders... Little blighters!

hunker - it depends which ADs, not all are suitable for taking if you are bf. Tbh, I think I would probably give them formula rather than bf if I was taking ADs, but that's my choice. You CAN take certain types.

I know, Rhubarb (see my bf and ADs thread from today in active convos). Can't see formula as a better option than ADs and bfeeding for myself though, I'm afraid.

I was told by my hv that because babies were bigger these days generally (and mine were both nudging the 10lb mark) that it was much harder to breastfeed generally and that's WHY formula was being developed for hungrier babies. Like it was an evolutionary thing.

some older ADs not suitable for taking whilst breastfeeding
any GP worth their salt should be up on the newer types where research has shown they're OK

am off before I get embroiled in this thread, me nerves can't take it!

puddle - what a stupid and ignorant health visitor. Really. Words fail me.

Hungrier baby milk - so-called - has been around for longer than the other stuff. Hungrier baby milk is casein-dominant and takes longer to digest than the more recently-developed whey-dominant milks, which (I think - haven't checked) came in about 30 years ago. I think SMA Gold was the first one, and the other manufacturers soon followed, with 'me too' products.

Hungrier baby milk is still approved for use from birth.

(Follow on is something different, and was developed solely as a response to laws which prevent infant formula from being advertised direct to mothers...b/c f.o is marketed for babies over 6 mths)

If you are still in touch with this woman, do tell her :)

Hunker - sorry I just saw your thread! I've posted there.

Just wanted to comment on:

before having dd everything i read or was told about bf implied it should only hurt if your doing it wrong, your nipples only crack if your doing it wrong, etc, etc. that was blatently not true in my case. bf-ing physically hurt for the first week or so, and not just in my nipples, it was a blinding searing pain all the way back into my chest that left me gasping for breath and my dp worried sick. as well as that my nipples were so cracked my dd was spitting up blood that she was drinking with my milk -END QUOTE

Pain ISN'T normal at all. If a nippple is correctly in a babes mouth it is actually impossible for them to crack/damage the nipple or cause pain such as you describe. Its far easier to demonstrate in real life with a knitted boob but slight positioning problems mean the incorrect part of babes mouth is touching your breast and thus causes damage/pain.

QuoteWell the downsides of bf are that it can hurt, and no it's nothing to do with latching or positioning, for some women it just hurts until it gets settled down, and that pain can be quite bad!
It's not that convenient - I could never feed in public because my flow came out very quickly causing the baby to pull away and my milk to squirt everything, until I had this sorted I had to feed in private.
It is very restrictive. Unless you are good at expressing, you are tied to your baby whenever they need a feed. You cannot have a night off or even go out for a couple of hours.
Expressing is bloody hard work and not every woman can do it.
Mastitus can happen whether you're a pro breastfeeder or not, and believe me, it ain't pleasant! End Quote

What do you mean "until it settles down" - women may experience upto 10 seconds of discomfort (NOT pain) at the beginning of a feed. There should be no pain if baby is attached well. Issues such as oversupply you discuss can often be reduced or even eradicated with adequate breastfeeding information before mum starts feeding. I never expressed with my third and I didn't find it restrictive, when sooo tiny it was an issue I didnt want to leave LO anyway, by the time I did there were several hours between feeds. Yes a mum would need to express for a full night off but I'm not sure you would have to be very good at expressing to gather enough for one night, particularly if you knew in advance? In terms of restricting I found being out and suddenly realising I was out of formula/bottles worse, if we got delayed or held up I tended to have my boobs with me ;)
Yes mastitis can happen, however there are clear issues which can certainly contribute to the likely hood of it occuring and steps mums can take to prevent (ie ensuring the breasts are effectively drained, any ducts are cleared immediately etc etc)

Rhubarb and others: of course mothers need to know that bf is not without problems, and where to go if they do have problems, and to have confidence in the fact that problems can be adequately resolved.

But I don't think any pregnant mother needs an A-Z 'shopping list' of possible problems all the way from abscess to (um.....) zore nipples :) taking in thrush, mastitis and everything else...any more than anyone needs to know about all the different illnesses babies and toddlers might succumb to.

Sore nipples are indeed one of the most common issues, and while it's not true that 'if you are sore the baby can't be latched on right', I wish I had a quid for every mother I have seen who's been told the baby is on fine, and he just isn't. Even if he looks ok, then something is going on in his mouth that makes it not ok. It's then up to the supporter to help the mother amend the position, and this is a skill that gets better with practice.

Could be tongue tie, for instance, causing the prob.

Bleeding or cracked nipples are caused because the skin is broken/grazed. This has to be because the nipple is being compressed instead of being down the throat (apart from maybe excema or other dermy probs).

Generalised tenderness can indeed be the body getting used to the new sensation, but very often, amendment of the position by a skilled person helps a lot with that.

BTW, Rhubarb, there are very few situations where the baby would really be better off having formula than breastmilk. Poor diet, (some) medication, alcohol.....absolutely not reasons to ff.

Some heavy-duty anti-psychotic meds, chemo and other treatment for cancer, are a different kettle of fish.

I thought mastitis occured from bacteria in baby's mouth transferring through to the milk ducts? If this is the case mastitis cannot be prevented. I may be wrong though

Yep, you're wrong, Chloe :)

In a very few instances, mastitis is caused in the way you say.

In most cases, it begins with a inadequate/ineffective/infrequent removal of milk from one or more areas of the breast, or possibly massive over-supply which is untreated.

This leads to a stasis of milk which then blocks the duct(s) and this area of the breast becomes inflamed and possibly infected.

BTW, when it's bacteria from the baby causing that rare sort of mastitis, it is from the baby's nose, not his mouth. In fact, I have never heard of it coming from the mouth, though I suppose it could if the mouth had an infection, or the saliva had bugs in it.

born berry, i had 5 nurses, a doctor and the public health nurse check my dd's positioning and they all confirmed that she was latched on perfectly so no it was NOT bad poitioning that caused my nipples to crack.

every woman experiances bf-ing differantly, it's attitudes like this i have a problem with, people spouting useless and misleading info at you while your in agony, basically telling you your doing it wrong, making women feel like they might as well ff seeing as they're not able to bf properly!

not everyone has a smooth ride, it's not fair to assume those of us who don't are doing anything differantly or wrong, some babies like mine feed constantly for the first 6 months so no you don't get a break of a few hours between feeds and if you have overabundant milk at the beginning of a feed it DOES spurt everywhere, not ideal in a restaurant!

please don't spout information you've read in a book at people who've actually experianced the highs AND the lows of bf-ing