It WAS very childish of me, but I got a dig in at some Formula companies today......

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

Got sent a market research survey today asking me my opinions on formula milk.

So i gave them.....

Koolkat I am not inadequate
never have been
never will be
I am amazing

So why do you say that the "bf brigade" (what is that, by the way) make you feel inadequate? This is not a wind up or picking a fight, I'm genuinely intrigued by what you're saying.

Honestly, did I say you were ?

bf brigade is just a term I use
it is nothing defamatory tbh

like I call old women
the blue rinse brigade

it is just a term i use to categorise a section of society.

I know you are not caligula and neither am I.

DS I've just looked again at your post: "I was supported too by midwives but it bloody hurt me"

I'd suggest that in that case, you weren't supported. The mw's probably did think they were supporting you; you probably thought they were supporting you; but one of the greatest problems in the NHS imo is the number of HV's and MW's who genuinely believe themselves to be "supporting" a woman to bf when in fact they simply haven't had adequate training to do so correctly. And that, along with the shenanigans of the formula manufacturers, is what most of what "the bf brigade" as you might dub it, is complaining about. "Support" imo is not just sympathy and checking a latch, it's about really knowing how to sort out bf problems and really making sure a woman feels comfortable that she can do it on her own, and most HV's and MW's, through no fault of their own, simply don't have the expertise to do that.

Re whether I'm a member of the bf brigade - I don't know if I am or not. If bf brigade means a bunch of people who acknowledge that breastfeeding is the norm for babies and is woefully under-resourced and under-supported in this country and that that has got to change for the good of mothers, babies and the world in general, then count me in.

Caligula my first 2 children were born over 20 yrs ago when bf was the norm
the breastfeeding hurt me

and as I said if you can bf good luck and made up for you.

ps didnt bother trying the breast with the other children except for child no5 as he was born severly ill
I offered my milk but consultant said it would make no difference.
so i have no idea re the stance on breastfeeding with midwives, hv, health professionals now etc.

I sometimes ask myself why exactly it is that I feel so strongly about breastfeeding.

When I was pg with dd1, I always assumed I would bf - "breast is best" etc. When I heard other women saying things like "I'll try, but if it doesn't work out, I won't beat myself up about using formula" I was genuinely surprised that anyone thought they might not be able to bf. After all, mankind managed to survive more millenia without formula.

After dd1 was born, I had a nightmare trying to get bfing established. She fought at the breast, I got cracked nipples, then developed thush(agony!). It was only through searching on the net for information about bfing (to help me sort out my problems) that I started to realise just how important it is. I hesitate to say beneficial for reasons similar to those expressed in Bornberry's earlier link - it isn't beneficial, it is just normal. I would also agree with the other implications of this "breast is normal " statement.

I haven't got anything against formula itself, because I can see that it has its place in certain circumstances. But I think women have been done a great disservice by the way in which formula is marketed so that so many believe that it is as near as dammit to breastmilk. And unfortunately, any criticism of formula companies always seems to be interpreted as a criticism of those who choose to use formula.

I also wonder why information about the ingredients of formula is not more freely available. Could it possibly be because it suits formula manufacturers not to publicise these facts? I for one was shocked to hear about the fish eye stuff and potato starch.

Hope this wasn't too rambling. Got to go and get dd1 back from her friend's house now.

Yafta, not sure if I am a 'rampant' breastfeeder (or is that a joke I should be giggling at?) but I too think formula should be cheap. I think it should be permanently cheap - at a rock bottom price all the time. I would have no objection to that at all. The profits on formula milk are great, and the price of it reflects the high level of marketing and advertising that goes into it....rather like the way 'branded' paracetamol costs something like 5 times the price of the generic stuff or Tesco's own.

I can't believe you think that advertising would inform you more about formula - surely 21st century woman is generally more media-savvy than this? Since when was advertising designed to inform?

I would like to see a lot more independent, non-commercial information, comparing different brands - just as you might read about washing machines or microwaves or trainers or any other consumer product - and some honesty about what is known and what is unknown, and what is entirely unresearched.

I think that would be an eye-opener.

Of course some people might not want to read it. They might actually prefer to choose the brand with the prettiest colours on the box - just as they might choose a pair of trainers that looked fashionable.

That's their choice. But it would be helpful for those who did want to know.

QUOTE The profits on formula milk are great, and the price of it reflects the high level of marketing and advertising that goes into it....END QUOTE

Just a tad $150 million the baby milk market was worth in 1998....

Desperate - your message about feeling inferior confuses me. If someone was saying "you're a crap mother if you ff" I could totally understand a mum being angry and cross - but I genuinely don't understand how providing factual information that could perhaps help another mum or give her the confidence to try another time is making anyone feel anything, least of all someone who is comfortable with the outcome?

For someone to feel inadequate they have to feel either themselves or their behaviour was inadequate (regardless of whether this is actually the case so PLS don't think I'm saying it was!) If a mum has tried breastfeeding and for whatever reason it didn't work, I can understand feelings of anger or hostility to those who let them down but why should a mum feel inadequate? It's not HER fault if she received rubbish support but the people providing it, isn't it?

From my own experience I always felt with LO's 1 & 2 I didn't try hard enough or long enough but I realise I should never have been in the situation where it was so bloody hard! If I had had the right help I wouldn't have been walled into a situation of having no alternative, yet feeling like I had copped out.

Personal baggage aside cough cough many mums who choose to ff or do so by default arent even aware of many of the differences between formula and breastmilk or much recent research surrounding it. The 14p spent promoting BF from the government obv goes to banging on its best for 9 mths from all angles! Add onto that clever marketing from milk companies "Now even closer to breastmilk, your baby wont know the difference" (note - they dont say its CLOSE as that would be a lie, they say its CLOSER, closer than what?) and its hardly surprising formula is so normalised. Even less surpising is mums who based their choices on this info struggling to read researched facts that question an action that could potentially affect their child. (Lets face it the majority of us just want the best for our kids!)

For me it was really hard to read some of the formula/breastmilk research, and look what its done! Not only do I now "get" why these raving militants exist, I think I'm turning into one ;)

desparate - I am not sure where you get the idea that bf was the norm 20+ years ago. If anything it was worse then (if thats possible). Bf hasn't been the norm in the western world for many many years - LLL was set up in the 50's in america as a result of the lack of bf support & information.

Why don't the Gov have a Promoting Breastfing TV advert campaign like the safe sex campaign in the 80's and the current drink driving campaign. I find the drink driving advert quite powerful.
Perhaps the marketing done by formula companies wouldn't seem so bad when viewed against this backdrop.

Would the Gov be afraid of the reaction of the many prudish people who react to advertising campaigns?

Dros - I suspect it's because bf is still seen as a "women's issue" rather than a children's one and because most people in govt, rather like in life, have no idea of the real value of breastfeeding and therefore don't see the need to promote it properly.

But it could be so simple and so effective. I suspect prudishness has something to do with it.

What an emotive issue - been scanning this rather controversial thread. It really is just another thing to beat oursevles up about isn't it? Would men react like this? Of course breast is best, it is patronising to think that women don't know this. All the fellow mums I know have at least tried to breastfeed in the first instance, not all have managed it. There is such a mix of good support and midwives can approach it in a very bad way - taking your breast and shoving it in a baby's face will not always have the hoped for result!

I couldn't breastfeed either of my children and with the first went to huge lengths to try and rectify this. I got some excellent advice and help - tried supplementers, drugs, reflexology,etc, but it was actually the breastfeeding guru at our hospital that gave us our first formula!

Interestingly, when the same problem happened with baby number 2 I decided to try to do a lot more research about formula - to try and choose the best one or at least get opinions about it - I could find nothing and the internet is pretty vast!

Anyway, those are my musings. I do feel there has been a bit of over-sensitivity and defensiveness in the thread - I certainly over-reacted to those bf and felt I had to explain why I wasn't bf - but that was to do with me rather than them.

So far children seem okay for ff. Now we have to make sure that everything we give the children is organic and home made and not from jars. Why do we beat ourselves up so much??? Of course we want to do our best for our kids, that is a given, but is hating ourselves for being inadequate really that good for them?

Waffle ended.

MM,that is the point exactly.
There needs to be neutral factual information about formula and there isn't.

Why is this so contraversial? I just don't get it! I was ff, I grew up healthy and apart from hayfever that I got when I was 25, I'm fine! I chose to bf, my daughter has exczema. Another woman I know bf for longer than me and her son has very bad asthma. It just happens that way, I doubt that if I was bf I would have avoided hayfever, and if I ff dd, she would still have exczema and perhaps people would be saying "ah, that's because you didn't bf!"

You decide, as a mum, what is best for your baby and you. If you get all defensive about your choice, then perhaps you made the wrong choice. Those who make the right choices rarely get defensive about them, they have no need to. So breastfeeding or not, I suspect the controversy surrounds those mums who are not happy with their choices, which is a completely different issue.

Why dont the government campaign..well its quite complex really and the politics of breastfeeding as I recall touches on it. In 1994 a Government study estimated if everyone breastfed it would save the NHS £35 million per year just in short stays from illnesses such as gastoenteritis. This does not take into account illnesses treated at a later date (ie through into adult hood) of either baby or mum. Because a formula fed baby is statisically three times more likely to require a hospital stay plus more doctors visits (statistically according to the paper not anecdotally) formula costs the UK economy (and environment) quite a lot. Alongside this Formula companies often offer large "donations" to the NHS. If the government were to work to effectively promote breastfeeding it is likely formula manufacturers would withdraw these "donations". Formula companies also of course sell shares so the more profit made the higher the share price..Therefore, anyone with a share in the product would have an interest in its profitability?

If it's not an issue with you,why in all honesty do you keep coming back?
I'm not bothered about sleep routines or controlled crying,so I just stay away.
Am genuinely puzzled by your iconoclastic streak.

to me or to her?

Moondog - "" There needs to be neutral factual information about formula and there isn't. "" - because there would be no benefit/incentive to a neutral party to fund the research?

They do tests on other foods don't they? Baby foods for example? I'm sure there is neutral information about formula within the medical establishment.

What do you mean by neutral information? do you mean regarding ingredients? who does tests on other foods?

Ingredients, nutritional value, yes.

Honest comparisons with breast milk, etc.