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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

It WAS very childish of me, but I got a dig in at some Formula companies today......

613 replies

VeniVidiVickiQV · 04/04/2006 16:55

Got sent a market research survey today asking me my opinions on formula milk.

So i gave them.....WinkGrin

OP posts:
LucyJu · 06/04/2006 10:02

With regard to all that has been said about bfing in developing countries...

I gave birth to dd1 in a Baby Friendly hospital where the bf support was excellent (good job, too, as I had an awful time trying to get it established). IIRC, all staff working there had to be trained to help with bfing, even the HCAs. Anyway, I remember having an interesting chat with the lovely head midwife about bfing in general. She was saying how one of the HCAs, a lady from Nigeria, was really good at helping mothers with bfing, although she (the Nigerian lady) was bemused by the level of bf support at the hospital. This lady could not believe that such a job as "breastfeeding advisor" even existed. Her take on it was that in Nigeria, virtually everyone breastfed - and so if anyone had a problem, she could get advice from virtually any other woman. Women would breastfeed in markets, at bus-stops, wherever. No-one would feel shy about telling a new mother if she was doing things a bit "wrong". If she had any difficulties, she would be able to get advice from her own mother, her aunts, her sisters, her friends... Breastfeeding was not hidden away. On the other hand, in Britain, many people have never even seen a baby being breastfed before giving birth.

BTW, I've never been to Nigeria, just repeating what I've been told.

koolkat · 06/04/2006 10:10

Lucy - from what I have read - Nigeria was going down the path of formula too due to the aggressive marketing of formula there - but with active support from the major health orgs. many African countries have been able (thankfully) to go back to bf.

I remember when my son was a newborn and I still used to fiddle around with my tops and his position to get a good latch, I saw a beautiful African woman and her older baby sitting right opposite me at a baby clinic and she looked so confident feeding her older baby. Very different to my fiddling around and not looking so confident in the first few days after my son was born !

GDG · 06/04/2006 10:22

Q: Some nice things said about me - inc Pruni's downthread but I am not always nice. For example, the apology I made earlier today was meant sarcastically !! Yep - I wasn't being sincere when I said 'sorry' at all

But I am only like this with the people who deserve it and who can take it

ROFLMFAO Your arrogance is quite astounding

Caligula · 06/04/2006 10:39

Formula companies aggressively marketing their product so that the effect is for generations of women to lose the knowledge of how to breastfeed and support other women to breastfeed, is pure unbridled evil as far as I'm concerned. That applies globally, whether in rich developed nations or in the third world.

Formula marketing so that children who can't be breastfed can still get nutrition and live, is good.

But the formula companies do both and the fact that they do the former, is what I object to. If that makes me a maniac, well I've been called a maniac for far worse causes. Wink

Mercy · 06/04/2006 11:07

BornBerry, thanks for that info - and Koolkat too

sazhig · 06/04/2006 11:32

To add to BornBerry's useful post - Minimal training doesn't really come close to describing HV bf training - its not a compulsory part of their training Shock so there are many many HVs out there who have had NO bf training at all Angry Sad

koolkat · 06/04/2006 11:39

Mercy - you are welcome Smile

koolkat · 06/04/2006 11:44

sazhig - I have a friend who is a mw. As she is working in a hospital which is trying to attain "Baby Friendly" status, she has had to attend bf training sessions. The same hospital has bf mothers who volunteer to help other mothers.

So, yes unless the hospital is trying hard to get baby friendly status or already has it, it seems to be true that the vast majority of mw's and hv's in the UK have no or min. bf training.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 06/04/2006 12:59

Hey, im back to post. My its taken a few twists and turns this thread hasnt it! Grin

I would like to clarify something, going back to my original thread title:

I have an issue with formula companies/manufacturers. Not with formula as such. How could i? I use it with my DD. She is nearly 3 mind you. She has a cows milk protein allergy and cant have normal milk - obv i am not still b/feeding her.

What i dislike is the way they market their product.

For example, one tin i saw had a little tick and a phrase next to it saying "helps development of brain and eyes". I mean seriously, WTF is that about? To me, its a bit of marketing designed to dupe parents into thinking that their particular product is better.

I really dont like their growing up milks - again - a bit of marketing designed to make parents think they are doing their child a great service by giving something they can easily obtain from an average healthy diet.

Going on from that convenience packs. This particular marketing idea i REALLY hate. AND they are darned expensive for what they are too.

Finally, the Wysoy that my DD has. The average cost of formula is £5-6 a tin. Wysoy and equivalents are £9 a tin. Where is the justification in that? To make money out of people that have limited choices. Its stinks if you ask me.

They are very secretive about their ingredients, they will take every opportunity to market what is, to alot of people, a true necessity. There is no way to compare products except for a few graphs on their websites that show them just snapping at the heels of breastmilk but other companies trailing behind.

I dislike the way they suggest that formula can "complement" breastfeeding. I think its clear from any expert that mixing formula feeds and breastfeeding can seriously impair the success of breastfeeding. Thats not "complimenting" it at all IMHO.

This is just not good enough when making such an important choice.

Its true, that i believe breast is best. Thats because it is. Its sad that some women have lacked so much support that, despite their best efforts they have been unable to breast feed as they would have liked.

Tiktok - your posts, as always are very fair, and informative. Bornberry - yours too.

There have been alot of other important points made here, but i think some posts have been quite abrasive and unnecessarily condescending on occasion. I dont think this "helps" the debate by posting in this manner, and only serve to upset some people who have been forced or had to make a difficult choice.

I would also like to add that is too simplistic a view and rather flippant to suggest that feeding problems etc can cause PND.

With regard to formula use in developing countries, i wouldnt like to comment and i believe that their are few experts available to comment on that. It would be interesting to know more on this subject though.

I didnt post this to attack people who use formula. I do find it very sad that some people who use formula feel so strongly or hurt that they couldnt breastfeed and i feel deeply for them. It is such an emotive subject.

OP posts:
Mercy · 06/04/2006 13:13

I did wonder where you'd got to!

Thanks for your post Smile

BornBerry · 06/04/2006 13:33

Yikes don't even get me started on Soya Formula. I'm still trying 2 work out as its not approved by the DOH as an infant formula in the UK HOW they are allowed to sell it?!

suedonim · 06/04/2006 13:48

LucyJu, I recently moved to Nigeria (am currently in the UK but that's another story!) and have taken an interest in breastfeeding and formula companies. Our driver has a baby, their third child, born in December. His wife was considering changing to formula feeding and he asked my advice about it. She thought SMA Gold would be best because it is the most expensive. It costs 6GBP a tin, which I think is about the same as in the UK? The baby would use two tins week and it would have to come out of his income of about 300gbp a month. I didn't feel qualified to give advice or that it was my place to be laying down the law as to what they should do with their baby so just mentioned a few benefits of b-feeding and left it at that. Afaik, the baby is still being breastfed. Smile

Having lived in SE Asia where marketing of formula is very aggressive I have been impressed by the apparent complete lack of such advertising in Nigeria. In the (few) supermarkets there are, formula is very low-key, whereas in Indonesia each shop would have aisles and aisles of boxes and tins on display. UHT milk & milk products in general are advertised in Nigeria, though. I hate seeing a particular advert for drinking yogurt in cartons which has the slogan 'Pop, pour, throw!'Sad

I must add that like others here, I don't have a problem with formula itself. One of my four was almost 100% f-fed and I ocasionally used it for my other children.

Btw, we were at a party last Saturday with the MD of Nestle Nigeria but dh didn't tell me who he was until afterwards, lol! Grin

tiktok · 06/04/2006 13:51

Good to see you back, VVV.

You make the point that formula manufacturers are in it for the money - now, I don't mind people/companies making a profit, but with products designed for vulnerable people (in this case, babies) there is an imperative to market safely and honestly, and for that to be the bottom line....before profits, but without necessarily precluding profits.

This BMJ editorial has something to say on this:

\link{http://bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7542/621
"COMMERCIAL INTERESTS DRIVING STANDARDS FOR FORMULA MILK"}

I don't know if everyone can have access to this page; the gist of the piece is that the editorial is saying how commercial interests are the 'strongest driver of what goes into formula milk'.

This means that mothers who use formula milk cannot rely on the manufacturer of the product to have the health interests of their babies at the centre of their research and development.

I don't know how you can stop companies putting their shareholders' interests before the health requirements of babies, but it's surely not much to ask, surely, that they at least market their wares in an honest and legal way?

I can't see how anyone, happy and confident formula feeding mothers included, could object to that.

And BTW, the formula milk people would like us to be on formula forever - there is a tricky period between 'growing up milk' and the age where you have Complan and Build-Up (both formulas), but I am sure they're working on it.....

VeniVidiVickiQV · 06/04/2006 13:53

Bornberry - is it because they class it as a milk subsitute rather than a complete nutrition?

Thanks Mercy - was silently protesting........

lucy - your DH has ALOT to answer for for not telling Grin

OP posts:
beatie · 06/04/2006 13:55

Ooh Complan - that got me through my worst morning sickness phase. Perhaps pregnant women could be targeted next to help bridge the growing up milk ~ complan gap. Grin

tiktok · 06/04/2006 13:58

Bornberry - not sure you have that right. I think the issue is that soya formula is not part of the welfare foods scheme (soon to be phased out) and that it's only advised in situations where a formula fed baby is intolerant to cows milk formula.

No one is actually allowed to sell an 'unapproved' infant formula in the UK. Soya formula is not 'unapproved'....or am I missing something?

VeniVidiVickiQV · 06/04/2006 14:07

sorry that should be suedonim not lucy ! Blush

OP posts:
suedonim · 06/04/2006 14:38

Grin VVV!

moondog · 06/04/2006 14:44

So many thought provoking and intelligent things said here.
Beatie,your 9:28 post is a shining example of the calibre of woman posting on this thread.

There are a few exceptions however.

A little game for you.......

I cannot keep away from b/feeding threads even though I have nothing useful or original to say.

My modus operandi is to come on and bellow 'Parp!' at regular intervals.

I make childish comments and snigger and encourage similarly puerile posters.
(eg 'lmao' 'rofl')

I then proceed to poo poo any scientific studies scientist,although I purport to have a scientific background myself.

My grand finale is to announce how slim and healthy and generally marvellous my formula fed children are.

Repeat ad nauseam.

I know exactly what your issues are,said poster,but even I wouldn't be cruel enough to point them out.

BornBerry · 06/04/2006 14:46

oops my mistake its goats formula that isnt approved - the Department of Health website states:

Goats' milk is not suitable for babies, and infant formulas and follow-on formulas based on goats' milk protein have not been approved for use in Europe and are not recommended by the Department of Health.

So - why are they allowed to sell them in the shops?

IMHO Soya for me personally would simply not be an option (unless literally starvation was the other option) If an infant is allergic/intollerant to dairy hydrolyzed formula is availible (tbh if I HAD to ff I would try and obtain this anyway)

\link{url\www.babymilkaction.org/pdfs/tessaysoya03.pdf\Soy Formula link has quite a bit of info.

BornBerry · 06/04/2006 14:47

GOsh so hard to add a link on here lol Try again

\link{http://www.babymilkaction.org/pdfs/tessaysoya03.pdf\Soy Formula}

sazhig · 06/04/2006 15:01

Koolkat - I wasnt talking about mw bf training, just HV. I am not sure what initial training mw's have these days and whether it has a bf module, but yes you are right that all hospital staff who came into contact with babies & mothers would have bf training if it was going for bf friendly status. Would this include HV's though? What I was referring to was the actual basic training course you have to go on to be a HV - bf is only an OPTIONAL short course on this Angry. I have a very hard time seeing how anyone can say they 'specialise' in the care of children 0-5 and not study bf tbh Shock

Greensleeves · 06/04/2006 15:05

Grin moondog, I was struggling to find words to express my annoyance at the aforesaid infantile posturing. I needn't bother now!

BornBerry · 06/04/2006 15:23

Hiya
Pretty certain midwives dont have to have received breastfeeding training either unless the unit is BFI accredited. (Thats not to say all don't as some areas/trusts I'm sure will)

I googled to clarify this as the info I read was approx 2 yrs ago and I wondered if it might have changed....

I found the minutes of a UK NHS Trust Committee Meeting held 27th Jan 2005, it states:

The requirement for breastfeeding training was queried, and the Community Midwife, Assistant Director of Finance and the Assistant Director of Finance Manager said that this did not form part of the basic midwifery training.

Even if this changes NOW though, how long does it take to filter through the system?

TBH I think all hp's should have to attend the 3 day UNICEF breastfeeding management course.

What utterly baffles me though is the FREQUENT unwillingness of HP's to refer to a breastfeeding counsellor if they don't know. I am aware of health visitors who have refused the offer of a qualified breastfeeding counsellor to attend their baby clinics, on the basis they give out their own information. The counsellor offered because she heard a LOT of incorrect information given out by said HV's including a mum needed to supplement due to insufficient weight gain without even asking how often the baby was feeding etc

moondog · 06/04/2006 15:27

BB,I think MWs get about a day's lecture on b/feeding a part of their course unless they opt to follow up specialised modules.