It WAS very childish of me, but I got a dig in at some Formula companies today......

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

Got sent a market research survey today asking me my opinions on formula milk.

So i gave them.....

But what points? What's the argument? People just seem to be quoting each other!

Rhubarb - is you is or is you ain't Genie?

Are you planning on saying anything useful Rhubarb?

Grandmothers, mothers, sisters, cousins, etc. no longer have the knowledge or experience to show the younger generation how to bf.

What and you think that happens in 'developing' nations (where all bottlefeeding mums are apparently not allowed to do so whether they choose to or not.......). Hate to disappoint you - but it DOESN'T - they're expected in many places to "get on with it" - with no help or support from family members at all!

I is ain't Genie, no!

Moondog, I would love to, if I could just get my head around it all!

QofQ,tell me,what other 'developing' nations have you such authority to speak of other than Zimbabwe???

but your photo appears on the panel

is it custy then?

The photo clearly shows custard does it not?

Interesting about developing nations. Funny how men the world over try to control women in lots of different ways, telling us how to feed our babies is just one of them!

I'm not that familiar with Roobarb and Custard - custard is the cat then?

aaah!

Yes Rhubarb,you are dead right.
Men in white coats doing weird stuff in laboratories.
Very creepy.

Gawd, what a confusing thread. thank goodness I' m not a first time mum

Anyway. Tiktok and Koolkat et al, I guess it you are breast-feeding counsellors?. Which organisation do you represent? How do people contact such groups? Is your advice free?

I only ask cos a lot people don't know that such things exist. I didn't for months when it was all too late. I also wished I'd complained about hte MW who came to our house hours after we cam home from hospital. 5 years on I still feel very angry

Tis VERY confusing this thread!

What happened mercy?
Tiktok is a b/feeding counsellor with the NCT I believe.
She is the jewel in the crown that is Mumsnet,offering reams of practical measured and intelligent advice and is appreciated by all.
Not sure about KK.

There are organisations such as NCT Ass. for Breastfeeding Mothers and La Leche League which all have helplines and/or groups,most (all?0 of which are run by unpaid volunteers.

Don't mean I'm not sure about KK as a person (she's very nice too!) rather unsure of her professional background.

NCT ass? Really?

Association of Breastfeeding Mothers (ABM) also trains counsellors, I think.

The fact that women are still angry/ sad / emotional 5 years later, speaks volumes about the shit level of support there is for breastfeeding in this country, and it always bemuses me that people who bottlefed their children by choice are always so determined to promote the view that there is very little difference between breast and bottle. I bottle-fed my second child too, but I would never seek to argue that her diet for the first six months of her life was anything like as good as her brother's, who was breastfed.

If you chose bottlefeeding and enjoyed it, good luck to you; but ranting about how mad people are because they think breastfeeding ought to be the norm, as it is in Scandinavia where women are supported properly, just seems very destructive to me. Most women don't choose bottlefeeding because they want to, they choose it because breastfeeding fails. Look at the numbers. And then look at why breastfeeding fails and the lack of knowledge among most professionals who deal with new mothers, and then ask yourself whether the issue of not being able to get information about the different brands of formula, is quite as important as the issue of how to support the majority of mothers in this country who start off breastfeeding but give up within six weeks because of lack of support. It's about priorities.

And by the way, my grandmother smoked 20 fags a day from the age of about 20 until she was about 80. She then cut down to about 5 a day until she died at the age of 100. Does this mean that smoking is better than not smoking? Because really, that's the same argument people are using about the exzema/ asthma/ overall good health thing. All of us know babies with awful eczema and allergies who were breastfed until aged 7 (OK I exaggerate) and those who were bottlefed from Day 1 who are in the rudest of health; but anecdotes don't buck the overall trend.

shall try to keep it brief

1. dd - born 3/4 days early. kept vomiting bile, couldn't latch on, developed jaundice & was fed nasally fo r12 hours. had light treatment for 12/36 hours. came hone, struggled with breast feeding, kept waggling her head and wouldn't latch on. Spent 3 hours getting her to sleep when MW turned up. Described problems re feeding, MW said wake her up and I will show you. Cue screaming baby who refused to feed. After the MW left it took a further 5 hours to settle dd gave her small bottle of ff, she slept

2/ ds. born on his due date. All fine, fed well but I developed pre-eclamsia POST birth At home, feeding well, but I had a major headache every time I fed him. After a month i gave up as it was causing too mucch pain and no-one could explain (other than drink more water - which didn't help) I was visited by 4 different MWives

I didn't know about NCT etc

Caligula - I totally agree with what you are saying, but I'm not convinced that people have been ranting about how mad people are because they believe breastfeeding is the norm. I think the problem is and always has been how certain people present it as the norm IYSWIM. I think information on formula and your point on women who stop breastfeeding go hand in hand in some way though (I posted my beliefs on what formula information might achieve earlier today). And of course, breastfeeding support, needless to say.

Really unconvinced about the smoking analogy though. Not really the same boat. You could easily convince me that many smokers will die from a smoking related illness, but you can't convince me that formula fed babies will die from a formula-fed related illness.

Oh, I suppose I need to say that my last point refers to formula fed babies in the West.

Nice post Caligula.
I think the smoking thing is just to illustrate that any anecdote is useless in a debate like this.
It really winds me up tbh when we get a thread like this that people - on both sides - immediately start posting about their own situation: my baby was b/f and is doing great; I f/f and he's never had an ear infection, that sort of thing.
It says nothing about overall trends, which surely is what we should be interested in?

See what you mean about Caligulas smoking analogy Pruni. I must stop skim reading!

Some nice things said about me - inc Pruni's downthread but I am not always nice. For example, the apology I made earlier today was meant sarcastically !! Yep - I wasn't being sincere when I said 'sorry' at all :)

But I am only like this with the people who deserve it and who can take it

QUOTE MERCY - Anyway. Tiktok and Koolkat et al, I guess it you are breast-feeding counsellors?. Which organisation do you represent? How do people contact such groups? Is your advice free? END QUOTE

Copied this from another site I visit:

Whilst there are some wonderful, knowledgeable health visitors and midwives out there, they are not always the best people to contact for accurate up to date medical advice regarding breastfeeding and any problems you may be experiencing.

The standard breastfeeding training for midwives & health visitors is minimal, which means there can be gaps in their knowledge; especially if they themselves did not breastfeed and/or have not actively sought further training.

A breastfeeding counsellor is a really good idea for any mum who needs accurate information and support. A pre requisite for any counsellor is they must have nursed their own baby for a minimum period of usually 6-9 months (depending upon the organisation) plus undergone the required training which is extensive (2-3yrs) They are then required to keep their knowledge up to date for as long as they are working for a recognised organisation.

Breastfeeding counsellors do not charge for their services but work for a charity or health organisation which of course are donation/subscription funded. They are happy to help with any breastfeeding related issue, for example, sore nipples or other feeding difficulties, returning to work and breastfeeding, feeding older babies, and stopping breastfeeding. Counsellors who are mums who are passionate about breastfeeding and want to help mums succeed, if you are in anyway worried no matter how small your concern may seem please don't hesitate to get in touch.

The Association of Breastfeeding Mothers
PO Box 207
BRIDGWATER
Somerset
TA6 7YT

Helpine number: 0870 401 7711 (9am-10pm)
Website: www.abm.me.uk
Email: please visit www.abm.me.uk/abmcontactdetails.htm to select the email address most suited to you query.

La Leche Leaue Great Britain
PO Box 29
West Bridgford
Nottingham
NG2 7NP

Helpline number: 0845 120 2918 Website: www. www.laleche.org.uk
Email: [email protected]

National Childbirth Trust
Helpline number: 0870 444 8708 (seven days a week between 8am and 10pm.)
Website: www.nctpregnancyandbabycare.com

The Breastfeeding Network also has a helpline and a drugline for information about prescription drugs and breastfeeding.

Supporterline (9.30am-9.30pm daily) 0870 900 8787
Drugline: 02392 598 604
Website: www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk
Email: [email protected]

They do some really good leaflets too

I don’t understand why mothers/parents cannot all pull together on this issue and tackle the formula companies, the huge corporations who make large sums of money out of women not breastfeeding. Instead, those women who have used formula milk hold these companies in high esteem. I don’t get it.

I’ve breastfed both my daughters but also used formula milk for both. Dd1 got some formula from 4.5 months and dd2 has been given 2 night-time bottles from 6months. And whilst I marvel constantly over the biology behind breastmilk, I find it hard to get as excited about formula milk, just as I don’t get excited and marvel over any other processed commercial food product.

If anything I feel duped by the formula companies for once making me feel that way. I fell for the Milupa advertising/marketing when I gave into pressure to give my poorly sleeping dd1 a bottle of formula at bedtime. To ease my unease over this, I opted for the most expensive one, the more unique looking brand which I had not seen associated with being given away free to mothers on benefits. The snob in me thought I was choosing the better milk – as close to breastfeeding.

Now I feel foolish that I was ever taken in by that (and paid £1 extra per packet just to feel superior!)… but I knew so little then.

What would mothers be gaining from advertising being allowed? More confusion likely. I am a label junkie… I cannot buy a product without examining the label. It doesn’t mean I always understand what is written on the label. And advertising still plays a large part in most people’s shopping habits.

This past weekend I visited the supermarket late at night looking for strong pain killers. For the first time I looked at the ingredients list of all the boxes. I learnt that the over the counter stuff all contains the same strength of paracetamol or ibufrofen. In yet the front of the boxes would have you think differently. Some boxes claimed to be for tension headaches, others were called XXXXextra XXXXfast acting XXXXextra strength. In yet they were all the same.

How would /could the average mother choose what THEIR baby needs in a formula milk? Surely all formula milk should be the same (barring those for babies who are dairy intolerant) and made to the highest possible standards of safety. Don’t all infants have the same nutritional needs? How, as a parent, would you be able to choose one formula over another even if they listed their ingredients explicitly? As someone way back pointed out, advertising and information are very different things.

Why can’t this issue be something that mothers are united over? It should piss everyone off that corporations turn infant nutrition into a marketable commodity. Who can pull the wool over the mothers’ eyes the most? I imagine them sat around their conference tables laughing at our stupidity. “Oh yeah, they bought that crap about LHLs and sales have
rocketed”

Just to clarify something - I am NOT a bf adviser and never have been nor have I ever pretended to be.

The "advice" I give women on the the bf threads are not meant to be "professional" just the experiences of a bf mother. I have been an active member of LLL and regularly read the BMA and UNICEF websites out of personal interest. I also discovered kellymom.com when my son was very very small and found it a life saver in terms of bf advice. I still use it and very very much admire the woman (an American) who set it up. I also have a personal friend living abroad who is studying to become a bf adviser for LLL and I always ask her advice.

Of course none of these make me a professional and, but as I have a 22 month old son who is still bf and I have always always managed to resolve my own bf problems, I rather think I have more experience than say certain best selling authors of baby books who have neither personal experience nor any training in bf.

When friends ask me for advice, I give them the LLL helpline no. and refer them to material on the internet. Only recently I met a mother of a small baby who wanted advice, as she was mix feeding and her son had stopped latching to the breast. I gave her my home phone no. and then the no. for LLL, the details of 2 baby cafes plus the no. for a hospital nearby that has a bf drop in session. I did NOT give her personal advice, as I have no experience in re-lactation and would not have dared comment on something I know nothing about.

As for developing countries, I have studied development studies and women's issues at post-graduate level and travelled in many developing countries which has given me an insight into the activities of Nestle and other multinationals. The Politics of Breastfeeding is based on evidence and research undertaken in the developing world. I therefore think I have rather more than anecdotal comments re. bf issues in the developing world.